Dear Michael,
I didn't try the Shockwave version or Turning the Pages, but in the
Silverlight one your content seems to be unencrypted:
http://ttpadd.bl.uk/ttp_cw/bookdata/books/14448fd3-dc22-430c-98df-7f4b8e237657/sl_med/Arbuthnott_med_p6.png
Did you do any tiled zoom? Again, on the Silverlight version the zoom
seems to be static - hence it does not refine the image based on
progressive download.
Thanks again,
Cristiano
On 23 Sep 2009, at 11:09, Michael Stocking wrote:
> We took the third approach when building Turning the Pages with the
> BL. All files are encrypted and then decrypted on the fly in the
> app, so even if you poke around in the cache and could figure out
> that a .ttp file is just an alias for another format, you'd never
> get the whole file. Not so hard.
>
> We thought it was a basic decision on who you're trying to protect
> files from - casual digital pickpockets or determined "thieves".
>
> There's been some interesting discussion on this over at the MCN
> list regarding the commercial loss of any stolen images, which in
> turn raises the whole licensing debate. Which I know almost nothing
> about...
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Michael
> =========================
> Michael Stocking
> Managing Director
> Armadillo Systems
> 300 Kensal Road
> London W10 5BE
> +44 (0)20 8960 8600
> [log in to unmask]
> www.armadillosystems.com
> www.turningthepages.com
> http://digitalcultureonline.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> On 23 Sep 2009, at 10:58, Cristiano Bianchi | Keepthinking wrote:
>
>> Dan, Frankie, thanks for your suggestions.
>>
>> A few things come to mind:
>>
>> - Dan, of course you are right: anything that is on a screen is out
>> for grabbing - the issue is how easy you make it to grab. I think
>> any of our client would be prepared to give the images away to
>> 'thieves' who patiently reconstruct them screen grab after screen
>> grab.
>> - To increase security if I had to do a custom designed tool, I'd
>> probably put the file names for the tiles in a database, rather
>> than relying on a naming convention, which, however clever, can be
>> decoded - so a tool to automatically grab the images could be
>> developed by someone with the right skills. Even Silverlight grabs
>> images over an open connection - as Firebug will testify.
>> - Another approach may be to encrypt the images and decrypt them on
>> the fly, so that whoever gets to the encrypted files won't be able
>> to use them, but to be honest we never seriously looked into this
>> and I'm not sure it can be done - it would require a fair amount of
>> effort in any case.
>>
>> So is the bottom line: if you don't want people to steal them do
>> not publish them...?
>>
>> Best, Cristiano
>>
>>
>>
>> On 23 Sep 2009, at 09:56, Frankie Roberto wrote:
>>
>>> James is right - the wikipedia case used an automated tool (you'd
>>> have to be
>>> pretty patient to assemble the images from screengrabs). However,
>>> any
>>> systems that displays high-res images by splitting them into tiles
>>> is going
>>> to be vulnerable to this kind of exploitation - stitching tiles back
>>> together again automatically is fairly trivial, so long as you can
>>> figure
>>> out the naming scheme.
>>>
>>> As an example, here's a particularly fetching bit of shoulder from
>>> *Christ
>>> in the House of His Parents*:
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/desperateromantics/paintings/assets/zif/e50f7643ffea2bb8f12bb8b8708c6211-christ452895102/1/tile.4-5.jpg
>>>
>>> It should be remembered, though, that the main reason for
>>> splitting high-res
>>> images into tiles is for usability/performance reasons (it'd take
>>> ages to
>>> download the whole image in high multiple zoom factors, and would
>>> probably
>>> run really slowly in most browsers, eating up system memory). The
>>> security-by-obscurity is just a side effect (you wouldn't do this
>>> with
>>> text!).
>>>
>>> The main reason I gave -1 for using Flash over javascript though
>>> is that,
>>> whilst nearly all desktop browsers have some version of the Flash
>>> plugin
>>> (and the latest version of Firefox helpfully encourages people to
>>> upgrade),
>>> some devices like the iPhone, small netbooks, and the One Laptop
>>> Per Child
>>> 'xo' (of which over 1 million have been distributed to children in
>>> poor
>>> areas) aren't Flash capable.
>>>
>>> As for javascript-based solutions, there are a few around, and I
>>> think there
>>> was a discussion on this list about them only a few months back.
>>> The one
>>> I'm most familiar with is OpenLayers (http://openlayers.org/),
>>> which is
>>> designed for map tiles, but works equally well with photo tiles
>>> (and is free
>>> and open source). It's also pretty stable and well documented, and
>>> has a
>>> full javascript API - however there's a bit of a learning curve.
>>>
>>> Anyway, well done to the BBC (and their museum collaborators) for
>>> making
>>> such a nice, high-production-values site. I'm not normally a fan
>>> of old oil
>>> paintings, but the website (and the TV show) got me interested. It
>>> seems
>>> that fiction (and dramatised history) loves to use museums and
>>> galleries as
>>> a setting (I'm thinking also of the Da Vinci Code, which is also
>>> used as an
>>> example of linked data at http://www.freebase.com/). I wonder if
>>> there are
>>> ways that museums and galleries could exploit this interest more
>>> (the Louvre
>>> does a nice line in Da Vinci Code tours: http://bit.ly/Y5s3e)?
>>>
>>> Frankie
>>>
>>> 2009/9/23 James Morley <[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>>> From what I understand in the NPG case it was all accomplished
>>>> using an
>>>> established, readily available, and totally automated tool to
>>>> reconstruct
>>>> high-res images from Zoomify tiles, all using data that is
>>>> visible in the
>>>> source code, and files in a named directory structure (and one I
>>>> don't think
>>>> you can change).
>>>>
>>>> But if you did a more bespoke tool and/or hid your urls more
>>>> cleverly then
>>>> that would have to be a major deterrent. Even though technically
>>>> someone
>>>> would be able to grab them (either underlying files or screen
>>>> grab), the
>>>> thought of manually doing this should be daunting enough to most
>>>> potential
>>>> 'thieves', surely?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> James Morley [log in to unmask]
>>>> Website Manager Tel. +44 (0)20 8332 5759
>>>> Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew www.kew.org
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: Museums Computer Group [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dan
>>>> Zambonini [[log in to unmask]]
>>>> Sent: 23 September 2009 08:55
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: BBC Desperate Romantics paintings
>>>>
>>>>> As a side issue, you rate it 10 for not using Silverlight and -1
>>>>> for
>>>>> using Flash over JS.
>>>>> But have you (or anyone) found a good JS solution for doing
>>>>> similar
>>>>> things (progressive zoom)?
>>>>
>>>> The (bespoke) JS zoom tool we built for the National Gallery does
>>>> progressive zoom, and is also fairly accessible (has keyboard
>>>> shortcuts,
>>>> degrades gracefully):
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/vincent-van-gogh-sunflowers
>>>>
>>>>> My guess is that any tool of this kind will need access to a
>>>>> folder
>>>>> where the images are - which are in this case open to
>>>>> exploitation,
>>>>> unless they were stored as binaries objects in a DB.
>>>>
>>>> There is NO way of stopping the exploitation; if you have to
>>>> display the
>>>> individual tiles to the end user, then they can screen-grab them
>>>> and
>>>> re-assemble them into the larger file (like in the Wikipedia
>>>> case, as far
>>>> as
>>>> I understand it), no matter how they are stored/transmitted/
>>>> displayed.
>>>> Putting any attempts at preventative measures into these tools,
>>>> which might
>>>> aversely affect performance or usability for the vast majority of
>>>> 'legal'
>>>> users, seems (to me) to be a bad idea.
>>>>
>>>> Just my 2p.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> Dan Zambonini
>>>> Box UK
>>>> Internet Development and Consultancy
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Frankie Roberto
>>> Experience Designer, Rattle
>>> 0114 2706977
>>> http://www.rattlecentral.com
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Cristiano Bianchi
>> Keepthinking
>>
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Keepthinking
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