I am the beneficiary of a great many things that are devastatingly
bad for human society at large. If I didn't have those things I'd
fight like hell to have them, but I'd nonetheless experience all
manner of anxiety about their consequences, as I do now. I'm also
aware that if I made the choice to avoid those anxieties by becoming
blameless I'd be having very little effect on the long-term health of
my community. I don't think awareness of what I've received needs to
come at the cost of being unaware of the social consequences.
Re: conditions of work. for many years I was a more-than-full-time
psychiatric social worker while raising a child. My role in
childrearing was rather more like the traditional mother's role than
the father's. Because I needed to write I wrote late into the night
and caught up on sleep on weekends. I don't recommend this as a way
of life, and I understand why writers have fled to the academy. I
also know that what my life in those years was like pales in
comparison to what it must have been like in pre-Celtic Tiger
Ireland. I respect your choice (not that my respect should matter to
you), probably would have made a similar choice myself, but I don't
think you can accurately extrapolate from your experience to the
entire field of MFA candidates, most of whom are far more privileged.
Specifically, you continue to argue in polarities. The alternative to
bureaucratic structures for the teaching and practice of poetry
isn't, as you point out, total isolation. Nor is it the pub (it may
be the pub in Ireland, for all I know, tho I doubt that Catherine
Walsh has spent a lot of time there): even an isolata like Lorine
Niedecker managed to maintain a supportive correspondence.
Best,
Mark
At 10:45 AM 8/18/2009, you wrote:
>Obviously I believe that, like the other arts, poets benefit from
>peer critique and a learning community where there is exchange of
>ideas and references, and that workshops in universities and
>colleges, and writing programs, provide useful environments for such
>exchange, particularly for women, who benefit from an environment
>structured more explicitly on egalitarian grounds than more informal
>peer groupings available in my culture at least, which were centered
>around males in the pub. "Self-tuition" demands an abrasive
>discussion, just as "writing programs" are getting. Audience,
>ideas, challenge, performance, collaboration: these are some of the
>concepts quick to materialize in group situation.s "Self-tuition"
>sounds like the pedagogical equivalent of "the lyric voice," but
>even the Romantics came together in groups to work and learn. Let's
>have a discussion on the benefits of "self-tuition" in contemporary
>arts and education. I think all learning is self-tuition, in a
>sense, but programs have supplied useful structures for me and
>enabled me to qualify to teach, and thus support myself and
>family. When I was running the Belltable Arts Centre in Limerick,
>in the late 1990s, I worked 7 days a week, 364 days a years, 24/7,
>as it seemed the arts centre was open that much! There was no time
>for children, let alone poetry or self-tuition. I returned to
>college, also in my thirties, in order to have time to write and to
>prepare for the possibility of a career which would allow me to both
>write and spend some time with my children. I identified with
>Michael's post yesterday. More than anything else, it was sheer
>bliss to have structured time to write, to read, and to articulate
>ideas which I had been developing for years through practice, some
>of which were due for retirement, some of which for a leap
>forward. I've never had the sort of anxieties about writing
>programs which have manifested in this discussion. I've 15 or so
>years' experience with them at this point, and know the pros and
>cons. Just as in everything, structure both facilitates and
>limits. I'd love to see writing programs situated in the art school
>rather than the university but that's my thing. As I say, I don't
>buy into the anxiety here. I had no training as a journalist,
>learned it all from the streets, the school of hard knocks,
>self-tuition, blah-blah-blah. But actually there were few, if any,
>journalism programs available in Ireland then. If I wanted to be a
>journalist now, yes, I'd find the best, most challenging, most
>sophisticated program I could.
>Mairead
>
>
>On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Jeffrey Side
><<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Mairead, the points you raise are, no doubt, true in and of themselves,
>but I don't see how they are relevant, to the specific point I was
>making about whether MFA creative writing courses (or any other such
>institutionalised programme) are more necessary to teach poetic writing
>than methods requiring self-tuition. I think this specific point has little
>to do with culture, ethnicity or gender.
>
>
>
>
>On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:18:24 -0400, mairead byrne
><<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >I think there's a very wide range of ways poets across cultures have
>been
> >formally educated.
> >I think there's always been control in poetry: who is allowed to
> >write/publish. Poetry, in English, has been much more tightly
>controlled
> >than prose, in this respect. Obviously, as colleges are explicitly equal
> >rights type organizations, someone like me (peasant / woman /
>mother) has
> >more to gain than in the ostensibly deregulated poetry world which
>was, in
> >my experience in Ireland, pretty much as Eavan Boland has described:
>woman
> >is the possible subject but not the possible author of poems.
> >One problem about our discussion is the narrowness of the cultural
> >experience upon which each argument is based, e.g., you may be
>speaking
> >about poetry in English in England since the mid-20th century, from the
> >position of an English-born white male, while I may be speaking about
>poetic
> >traditions and education in Irish before the Plantations, and also in
> >English, in Ireland, in more recent centuries; and diverse American
> >traditions since Whitman, from the position of an Irish
>emigrant/American
> >immigrant/white/female. Our positions are extremely close, even
> >overlapping, yet there is little clarity. And our discussion does not
>even
> >attempt to address wider cultural histories of poetry, e.g., in Asia,
> >Africa, or even in a range of languages, although we use the
>word "poetry"
> >as if it were not intensely specific not only to our personal histories
>but
> >also to our personal taste.
> >In a sense, there is little "authority" in this discussion, which does
> >actually make me appreciate works of research and scholarship, which
>attempt
> >a broader or deeper exploration.
> >Mairead
> >
> >On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Jeffrey Side
> <<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
> >
> >> On those terms he probably would be. The point is, not so much that
> >> poets don't need some sort of learning, but rather how they should
>get
> >> it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:06:51 -0400, mairead byrne
> >> <<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Yeah, and I wonder was Shakespeare's "small Latin & less Greek"
>the
> >> 16th
> >> >century equivalent of "the guy doesn't even have an MFA."
> >> >Actually though, I do believe the stakes are real, and very high, for
> >> >poetry. The law, more than creative writing programs, maintains
>its
> >> >mediocracy (I love PBS but find the conjunction
>of "unacknowledged"
> >> and
> >> >"legislators" to be neutralizing.
> >> >Old druid that I am, I believe implicitly in the power of words. But
>I
> >> >don't think I'm romantic.
> >> >Mairead
> >> >
> >> >On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Jeffrey Side
><<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I can see David's point when he observes that the stakes are
>low
> >> when
> >> >> it comes to the practical ramifications of failed artistic practices.
> >> >> Certainly, no reader has been injured physically from reading a
>bad
> >> >> poem. Nevertheless, many degree-level disciplines in the
>humanities
> >> >> and wider arts subjects are similarly risk-free. Does this, then,
>mean
> >> >> that they should not be catered for at degree-level?
> >> >>
> >> >> Poetry does have certain skill-sets required in its writing, as
>anyone
> >> >> who has had to sit through endless lectures on prosody will tell
>you.
> >> >> True, prosody is, perhaps, now a defunct skill in poetic writing
>but it
> >> is
> >> >> a skill all the same, as much as that of any involved in musical
> >> >> composition. To the extent that creative writing degree-level
>courses
> >> >> teach this (along with, hopefully, the historical and theoretical
> >> >> components in the study of literature) then an analogy with
>degree-
> >> >> level courses in music can apply.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:27:20 -0700, David Latane
> >> >> <<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Here are a few more probably pompous observations. I wasn't
> >> making
> >> >> an analogy, per se, between jazz and the totality of poetry--but
> >> trying
> >> >> to answer Mairead's query about whether there was any
>meaningful
> >> >> distinction between "creative writing" in the academy and
>training in
> >> >> music, architecture and other fields. One of the distinctions for
>me is
> >> >> that formal training (apprenticeship, guild, academy) in many
> >> >> artistic/craft fields came long before the granting of degrees for
> >> writing
> >> >> poetry for practical reasons. There were skills and techniques in
> >> working
> >> >> with materials that required practice and training--whether
>playing
> >> the
> >> >> piano, or engraving a copperplate, or cutting a dovetail. And
>there
> >> was
> >> >> a market for certified practitioners. Poetry writing was different.
> >> >> >I think there are big differences between slam poetry (or any
> >> language
> >> >> creation) and jazz. People with a certain hutzpa and no practice
>at
> >> all
> >> >> can stand up at a slam and make an impact. People with a
>certain
> >> >> hutzpa introduced to the piano or saxophone a few days before
>can't
> >> >> even begin to rip through a few Charlie Parker tunes (with
>significant
> >> >> variations) without having hard glassy objects thrown at them.
> >> >> >Architecture that gets built requires certain trained skills.
> >> >> When "things fall apart" (Yeats) in poetry "nothing happens"
> >> (Auden).
> >> >> When things fall apart on a construction site people are killed
>and
> >> >> money is lost. Poets' imaginations are free--no telos. Writing
>for an
> >> >> MFA degree or any other degree requires the end of getting the
> >> degree
> >> >> to qualify (hopefully temporarily) this freedom. Architects can
> >> imagine
> >> >> freely too -- but the vast majority of them sit a tables in big
>firms
> >> >> figuring out how to decorate a box more cheaply. They pay for
>Pei to
> >> >> play. So I wasn't dismissing any architects--but commenting on a
> >> fact,
> >> >> based on a goodly acquaintance with what their actually working
> >> >> conditions are like. Only a few are ever given a pile of money
>and
> >> told
> >> >> to make something beautiful.
> >> >> >"But poets, or those who imagine and express this
>indestructible
> >> >> order, are not only the authors of language and of music, of the
> >> >> dance, and architecture, and statuary, and painting; they are the
> >> >> institutors of laws, and the founders of civil society, and the
> >> >> inventors of the arts of life, and the teachers, who draw into a
> >> >> certain propinquity with the beautiful and the true, that partial
> >> >> apprehension of the agencies of the invisible world which is
> >> >> called religion." Shelley--Defence
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >David Latane
> >> >> > <http://www.standmagazine.org>http://www.standmagazine.org
> (Stand Magazine, Leeds)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
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