While I would very much hope that Dr. Benneworth's comments would play
out and that the listed Journals would not be the only place that
established scholars would look to for publishing, such lists do have
other implications. I can well imagine that libraries in smaller
colleges or otherwise cash strapped institutions would take these
listings into consideration when deciding which journals to cut from
their acquisition list.  I'm also wondering  if less than A rated
Journals are in danger of not being bought by libraries and upcoming
scholars are not looking to publish in them, how long the for profit
publishing houses will be willing to continue producing certain journals.

Janet Forbes

Paul Benneworth wrote:
> Hi there
>
> I'd like to prefix my remarks by saying this isn't an ad hominem response - and particularly not an attack - on anything that anyone on these lists has said.  Rather, the rather engaging discussion on CGF has sparked me to write something down that's been going around in my head as a result of recent issues of times higher and University World News, and a Ph.D. publishing workshop I attended recently.
>
> * * * * * *
>
> I think what most makes me feel uneasy in reading these discussions is the signals that people are giving off by their responses to the lists being published.
>
> I accept that - for a short period - life-changing decisions for individuals affecting salary, tenure and promotion - are profoundly influenced by things like these.  But what is being created with these lists is not a cast-iron pillar of the academy - it's an extremely contentious attempt to shoe-horn what we do into an ill-fitting vision of what others think we do*.
>
> So this mismatch suggests that it is not likely to have a long term impact, but if we behave like it does, then we are increasing the chances that it makes a difference.  Particularly if we shout that these lists are going to destroy what we do, effectively we are giving people with no real interest in intellectual content the chance to do precisely that.
>
> Getting back to first principles, we are not just making a career in the academy, we are trying to make statements that contribute to an academic conversation that creates, challenges, subverts and confronts knowledges and understanding of the world we live in.
>
> In the final reckoning, we are all responsible to ourselves for how we make those statements, and if we get into short-term game playing, chasing A-lists and 4* journals, when the wind blows and the ratings change (or disappear), then we have to accept the longer term consequences of our short-term behaviour, which might be that ultimately a very promising scientific career has a very limited impact in terms of these discussions.
>
> In the long-run, what doesn't matter is getting published in an A-rated journal, it's having others respect and respond to the ideas that you articulate - wherever they are published.
>
> I would have thought critical geographers would be critical of short-term herd behaviour, not reinforcing it.  I would expect the leading voices in the discussion to be setting a positive - and supportive - role model for newer scholars.  Saying that one way to challenge these lists is to ignore them as far as is possible, treat them instrumentally, and ensure we draw on and cite good and interesting research wherever it is published.
>
> Perhaps our intellectual leaders might make the point that whilst these lists are disappointing, if we keep our eye on the longer game - and the chance to make a difference to real scientific conversations - then we should not feel - or allow ourselves to feel - dictated to by them.
>
> *- I am reminded here of the adverts for the ?1 Low Price Menu of a UK burger chain - "Low Prices for Ever" - as soon as it cut into the core business of selling ?2 burgers it disappeared.  If these lists cut into the core business of excellent research, we will hear nothing more about them, and in five years time we will wonder what all the fuss is about.
>
> All the best
> Paul
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A forum for critical and radical geographers [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Warwick Murray
> Sent: 31 July 2009 04:20
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Australian ERA Metrics
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> Asia Pacific Viewpoint is not on the list either, but is on the general humanities one as an 'A' journal. If - as happens here in NZ - assessment panels give more weight to publications in a person's principal discipline this means we'll get fewer submissions from Australian geographers - which currently account for about 30%. So these exercises not only reshape our discipline, they have the potential to re-shape our journals according to the little boxes that somebody somewhere has dreamt-up!
>
> Cheerio
>
> Warwick
> ____________________________________
> A/Prof. Warwick E Murray, PhD
> Reader in Human Geography and Development Studies
> School of Geography,. Environment and Earth Sciences
> Victoria University of Wellington, NZ
>
> Homepage: http://www.victoria.ac.nz/geo/people/warwick-murray/index.html
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A forum for critical and radical geographers [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sally Weller
> Sent: Friday, 31 July 2009 2:38 p.m.
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Australian ERA Metrics
>
> Re Jane's comment - Singapore Journal of Tropical Geography has an "A" rank at present. Sally
>
>
>
>
> Dr. Sally Weller
>
> Senior Research Fellow - Regional Economies
> Centre for Strategic Economic Studies
> Victoria University
>
> Rm 1355, Level 13, 300 Flinders Street,
> PO Box 14428,
> Melbourne 8001 Australia
>
> Phone: +613 9919 1125
> Fax:     +613 9919 1350
>
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> www: http://www.cfses.com/staff/sweller.htm
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A forum for critical and radical geographers [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Jacobs
> Sent: Thursday, 30 July 2009 7:45 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Australian ERA Metrics
>
> Dear Colleagues, what a  sorry list that this is, and how sad the
> presses upon disciplines and the academy.
>
>    I cannot agree more with Allen's point which raises the issue that
> certain 'regionally' specified journals are lowly ranked or off this
> list altogether. One such omission as far as I can see is the
> Singapore Journal of Tropical Geography. What annoys me most about
> such an omission is this: it is not just that SJTG is an excellent
> journal and should be listed highly, the Australian academy is always
> banging on about its close relations (what? market relations?) to Asia!
>
> We need an archaeology of this list which has irrationalities
> comparable to that of Borges. Does anyone know how this list was
> made?  Lists like this do not simply appear from a bureaucracy, they
> must shaped by advice from somewhere in the Australian geography
> discipline. Perhaps someone who helped shape this list could give a
> rational account of it.
>
> Jane Jacobs
>
> On 30 Jul 2009, at 08:52, Allen Scott wrote:
>
>   
>> I am to say the least horrified by this list, not only on account
>> of its
>> utterly cranky rankings, but more importantly the bureaucratic
>> stupidity
>> that underlies this sort of effort. Presumably, if the ranking
>> comes into
>> effect, a great paper published in the Scottish Geographical
>> Journal will
>> have no value compared to some crappy piece in the Annals of the
>> Association of American Geographers. What kind of Kafkaesque
>> nightmare is
>> this? Can't people read? Allen Scott.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  that > In the context of continuing debates in the UK on the RAE/
>> REF (and
>>     
>>> following from the excellent article by Richards et. al recently
>>> published in Area), list members might be interested in the metrics
>>> system currently under review in the Australian context. The
>>> 'Excellence
>>> in Research for Australia' (ERA) initiative will use a combination of
>>> metrics and 'expert review'. One of these indicators is a
>>> discipline-specific tiered journal ranking system. Whilst the 'Human
>>> Geography' list is yet to be finalised, the provisional list is below
>>> with journals ranked from C to A*.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Clearly some significant implications for research and dissemination
>>> practice...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A* Annals of the Association of American Geographers 0004-5608
>>>
>>> A* Body and Society
>>>
>>> A* Economic Geography 0013-0095
>>>
>>> A* Environment and Planning A 0308-518X
>>>
>>> A* Environment and Planning B-Planning & Design 0265-8135
>>>
>>> A* Environment and Planning C
>>>
>>> A* Environment and Planning D-Society & Space 0263-7758
>>>
>>> A* International Journal of Urban and Regional Research 0309-1317
>>>
>>> A* Journal of Rural Studies 0743-0167
>>>
>>> A* Progress in Human Geography 0309-1325
>>>
>>> A* Transactions of the Institute of British Geographers 0020-2754
>>>
>>> A Applied Geography 0143-6228
>>>
>>> A Area 0004-0894
>>>
>>> A Australian Geographer 0004-9182
>>>
>>> A Canadian Geographer-Geographe Canadien 0008-3658
>>>
>>> A Cities 0264-2751
>>>
>>> A Community Development Journal 0010-3802
>>>
>>> A Environment and Behavior 0013-9165
>>>
>>> A European Urban and Regional Studies 0969-7764
>>>
>>> A Geoforum 0016-7185
>>>
>>> A Geographical Research 1745-5863
>>>
>>> A Journal of Urban Affairs 0735-2166
>>>
>>> A Political Geography 0962-6298
>>>
>>> A Professional Geographer 0033-0124
>>>
>>> A Regional Studies 0034-3404#
>>>
>>> A Theory Culture & Society 0263-2764
>>>
>>> A Urban Affairs Review 1078-0874
>>>
>>> A Urban Studies 0042-0980
>>>
>>> B Antipode 0066-4812
>>>
>>> B Australasian Journal of Regional Studies
>>>
>>> B Cultural Geographies 1474-4740
>>>
>>> B Gender Place and Culture 0966-369X
>>>
>>> B Geografiska Annaler Series B-Human Geography 0435-3684
>>>
>>> B Geographical Analysis 0016-7363
>>>
>>> B Geographical Journal 0016-7398
>>>
>>> B Geography 0016-7487
>>>
>>> B Geojournal
>>>
>>> B New Zealand Geographer 0028-8144
>>>
>>> B Papers in Regional Science 1056-8190
>>>
>>> B Social & Cultural Geography 1464-9365
>>>
>>> C Boletin de la Asociacion de Geografos Espanoles 0212-9426
>>>
>>> C Children and Society 0951-0605
>>>
>>> C Children Youth and Environments
>>>
>>> C Children's Geographies
>>>
>>> C Education and Urban Society 0013-1245
>>>
>>> C Eurasian Geography and Economics 1538-7216
>>>
>>> C EURE-Revista Latinoamericana de Estudios Urbano Regionales
>>> 0250-7161
>>>
>>> C Geographical Review 0016-7428
>>>
>>> C Geographische Zeitschrift 0016-7479
>>>
>>> C Habitat International 0197-3975
>>>
>>> C Journal of Geography 0022-1341
>>>
>>> C Journal of Urban Analysis 0091-1909
>>>
>>> C Journal of Urban Technology 1063-0732
>>>
>>> C Mitteilungen der Osterreichischen Geographischen Gesellschaft
>>>
>>> C Mobilities 1745-0101
>>>
>>> C Post-Soviet Geography and Economics 1088-9388
>>>
>>> C Scottish Geographical Journal 0036-9225
>>>
>>> C Scripta Nova-Revista Electronica de Geografia y Ciencias Sociales
>>>
>>> C South Australian Geographical Journal 1030-0481
>>>
>>> C Urban Geography 0272-3638
>>>
>>> C Urban Interest 0192-4974
>>>
>>> C Urban League Review 0147-1740
>>>
>>> C Urban Life 0098-3039
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___________________________________
>>>
>>> Dr. David Bissell
>>>
>>> School of Social Sciences | Research School of Social Sciences
>>>
>>> The Australian National University
>>>
>>> ACT 0200, Australia
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tel +61 2 6125 4209
>>>
>>> Email [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>> Web www.davidbissell.com <http://www.davidbissell.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>
> Professor Jane M Jacobs
> Chair in Cultural Geography
> Institute of Geography
> School of GeoSciences
> University of Edinburgh
> Drummond Street
> Edinburgh  EH8 9XP
> +44 (0)131 650 2515
>
>   

-- 
Janet Forbes

[log in to unmask]


Toronto, ON.