Thanks David and Tony
As David correctly surmised, the point of my message is that legal
avenues should not be used to stifle a correct and proper evidence based
debate in the open literature.
Tony I am not objecting people going to a chiropracter, I have done so
myself for sports injuries. But I do think that to claim that
chiropractic manipulation cures asthma or colic is quackery. This is
why:
There is no hypothesis between cause and effect that has been properly
tested, indeed is there even any validated evidence of an association
between chiropractic manipulation and cures of colic and asthma. One
would assume that if these existed the chiropractic profession would not
have feared reputational damage from Simon Singh. By the way, anecdotes
are not the same as properly conducted clinical trials.
Furthermore, Tony, you seem to think that it is my job to carry out
research needed to support or disprove the claims of the chiropractic
profession. It is not. It is their job. They are the profession
offering a treatment to the public.
Yours is a curious logic. If we apply it to other forms of medicine,
your logic is saying that, for example, drugs should not be required to
have scrupulous testing and evidence behind them before they are offered
to a patient. As long as someone who has done a "professional" course
of some sort says they are OK, no evidence is needed, no open scientific
and technical debate is needed.
May be reply to me direct, if you want to reply, rather than keep this
going on via JISCMAIL?
Apologies to everyone not interested in this. It will be last JOSCMAIL
on the subject
Paul Bardos
In message
<[log in to unmask]>,
David Fountain <[log in to unmask]> writes
>The details of the course and the fees are largely irrelevant - if an
>individual believes in the practise enough and wishes to undertaken the
>course, that has no actual bearing on whether or not the treatment is
>effective and scientifically defensible. Clearly the BCA felt they
>would not appear favourably in the open discussion that Paul suggested
>and so have decided to pursue a long-winded libel route.
>
>One has to wonder why they would choose the legal avenue, when you
>would assume they have the scientific proof to be able to defend
>themselves adequately in open discussion.
>It will be interesting to see how they present their case.
>
>
>
>Dave Fountain
>Contaminated Land Officer
> email: [log in to unmask]
> Office: 01283 508848 (direct dial)
> Fax: 01283 535412
>3 Post: Environmental Health Division, East Staffordshire Borough
>Council, Town Hall, King Edward Place, Burton upon Trent,
>Staffordshire, DE14 2EB.
> Web Site: www.eaststaffsbc.gov.uk
>? Help save paper - do you really need to print this email?
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Contaminated Land Management Discussion List
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tony
>Evans
>Sent: 28 July 2009 19:18
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Support the Sense about science libel campaign
>
>Paul,
>
>I can understand your need to vent your spleen over the liable culture in
>not only the United Kingdom but across the world.
>
>However using the word "quackery" is possibly not the right way to describe
>chiropractic and especially as you are a scientist and an intelligent man.
>
>If you take the time to visit the Anglo-European Collage of Chiropractic you
>will find that the masters course there is five years long and covers human
>anatomy extensively. The students are also given one chance of a re-sit each
>year fail that and you're out for good.
>
>There are no government fees or loans to be had and the course costs were
>(the last time I am aware were £13,000 in 1997). So the people that do it
>believe in it as much as you believe what you write in your books and the
>science behind them including Reclamation of contaminated land a book you
>were co-author of.
>
>Now I am sure that not every one that reads what you say or any of write
>believes that it is gospel so maybe you should cut these people some slack
>until you have carried out your detailed research programme into what they
>learn and what they do then you could make a detailed response to the claims
>laid against them and fight the cause.
>
>Now there is some scientific study that show that the neck adjustment
>provided by chiropractors can cause stroke in some patients (this they have
>never denied) this risk is much the same as little old ladies or anyone else
>for that matter who have their hair washed in an hairdressers with the head
>tipped back over the basin. Do we now say that all hairdressers are to be
>avoided no I think not it means that as with all things in life we make an
>informed judgment on our own risk assessment of the situation that we will
>be placing ourselves in. Bit like crossing the road risk access then cross!
>
>I was married to a chiropractor and had the misfortune to be in the clinic
>when a mother and father bring a child in suffering from colic and had been
>in pain and crying for days now after some massage on the spine this child
>stopped crying and fell asleep not a miracle but where other conventional
>methods had failed this one worked. Happy parents happy baby.
>
>
>I do think that sometimes some people jump on the band wagon too soon with
>their own opinion, do you not think that the GCC had taken legal advice on
>the best approach. And let's not forget it's not so long ago was it that
>doctors and scientist like yourself were deemed to be "quacks".
>
>Just because you don’t understand how it works doesn't mean its "voodoo or
>quackery"
>
>Tony Evans.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Contaminated Land Management Discussion List
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dr Paul
>Bardos
>Sent: 25 July 2009 20:14
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Support the Sense about science libel campaign
>
>Some of you may be interested to support this campaign:
>
>Simon Singh is an author who wrote an article in the Guardian about the
>likely risks of chiropractic treatment and whether or not there is any
>evidence that it is effective for various childhood conditions,
>including asthma and colic.
>
>The British Chiropractic Association has sued Simon Singh for libel. The
>scientific community would have preferred that it had defended its
>position about chiropractic through an open discussion in the medical
>literature or mainstream media.
>
>The use of the English libel laws to silence critical discussion of
>medical practice and scientific evidence discourages debate, denies the
>public access to the full picture and encourages use of the courts to
>silence critics.
>
> From my point of view it seems bizarre that the pedlars of various
>quackery not only have no need to provide reliable evidence for their
>ideas, they can sue those who point this out.
>
>This may seem a bit distant from the world of contaminated land
>management, but it is very close to us in terms of professional risks.
>I am sure many of you could imagine a scenario or two. What about
>"Black Box Remediation Co" sues for reputational damage because "Not
>Much Cash District Authority" contaminated land officer writes a case
>study review in a trade journal describing a project where no convincing
>evidence that the process works was presented.
>
>There is a petition to "keep libel laws out of science" at:
>http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/333/
>
>
>Paul Bardos
>
>PS
>More to be found on:
>http://www.badscience.net/ (good book too!)
--
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