Martin, I don't know where we're going, but I know where I want to go. I
want to be more aware of individuals, and you're helping me become more
aware of you with this and so many of your previous posts. That's all to
the good. I've rarely known a situation that wasn't helped by more
information.
Where else do I want to go? I want to ask questions and find out what a lot
of folks think in their varied responses. I want to see people not as
function-adjuncts of age, gender, ethnicity, professions, and prejudices. I
want to find out their cherished memories and motivations, to know the best
advice they have to give.
I'm incredibly fortunate to be able to travel and to have available the
internet so that I see, hear and read such an array of differences. Many
of these differences have made me drop assumptions about individuals, their
countries, and their governments. I told you that my 'not buying into'
ageism is work---and so it is. It is work to think of each person without
the old and automatic baggage learned over the years. I want to drop habits
that hamper my valuing an individual as *that* individual, not a sum of
categories into which the person can far too easily be placed.
There's too much joy, knowledge, and fun, I think, that comes from dropping
stereotypic assumptions. I don't agree with you that stereotypic
assumptions are actually observations, or that comedy and tragedy in the
classical tradition would be maimed by the elimination of such
'observations'. More important, though, is what any of us intends, what we
intend behind and with our words. Our intentions are seldom known, though
often guessed, by others, and often seldom known even by us.
I think you are well-intended, and I'm enjoying our argument.
Best,
Judy
2009/4/2 Martin Walker <[log in to unmask]>
> Well, I don't buy into this argument at all, Judy. "-isms" "negative
> stereotypes" - falaffel. Making observations about behaviour or a process
> (of aging, for instance) has nothing to do with -isms or stereotypes. I do
> not define/defile someone by making observations unless I reduce them to
> simplified or allegorized forms of such observations. Do you think Andrew
> was reducing himself? If I say "some young people have lousy street manners
> & hog the sidewalk" you think I don't know about all the qualifying
> circumstances? What is this? I personally feel awful about getting older
> because my concentration & my physical tone is going - I may not joke about
> it to help myself gain some distance through laughter because the class of
> senior citizens is thereby defamed? Goodbye Shakespeare, goodbye Sterne,
> goodbye Da Ponte/Mozart (who made the most awfully demeaning toilet jokes in
> his letters, simply brought shame & scandal to the noble realm of musical
> composition), goodbye Fawlty Towers, Bill Hicks, shut up Joyce...where are
> we going?
> cheers
> Martin
> _______________________________________
> But I am but a nameless sort of person
> (A broken Dandy lately on my travels)
> And take for rhyme, to hook my rambling verse on,
> The first that Walker's Lexicon unravels
>
> - George Gordon, Lord Byron
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Prince" <
> [log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:43 AM
>
> Subject: Re: Blake poem
>
>
> I wasn't joking, Martin, and I knew Andrew was being humourous. Folks
>> apply
>> PC differently and variously, but I wanted Andrew and others to consider
>> the
>> issue. I've certainly said ageist things about myself as do many over-50
>> folks I know. Usually I've made the remark automatically as a brief,
>> self-deprecating intro. No matter what the reason and circumstances may
>> be,
>> though, ageist comments are negative stereotypes. I'm trying to stop
>> 'buying into' it, which is taking some work, but I think it's worth it.
>> Best,
>>
>> Judy
>>
>>
>>
>> 2009/4/2 Martin Walker <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>> I challenge this "ageist" thing, Judy (if you're not joking) - if a
>>> retired
>>> person can't indulge in a little self-mockery (as I understand Andrew to
>>> have been doing) then PC Orwell rules OK. So 65+s "fiddle and fart" - I
>>> know
>>> I do. It's an observation, that's all. I've got plenty of ageist
>>> observations about young urban folks, specially girls, who are often
>>> incredibly rude on the street nowadays: like, nobody else exists. But
>>> hey,
>>> they're not all like that.
>>> mj
>>> _______________________________________
>>> But I am but a nameless sort of person
>>> (A broken Dandy lately on my travels)
>>> And take for rhyme, to hook my rambling verse on,
>>> The first that Walker's Lexicon unravels
>>>
>>> - George Gordon, Lord Byron
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Prince" <
>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 4:42 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Blake poem
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I challenge your tone [yes I know you're being humourous] about retired
>>>
>>>> folk, 'Droo; it's ageist and makes me [can't speak for others] feel
>>>> negative
>>>> about retired folk. I hope we can be positive about folks who we don't
>>>> feel
>>>> are young. Our cultures [yours and mine] have a low opinion of old
>>>> folks.
>>>> It's a damaging stereotype and one of the most persistent, if we buy
>>>> into
>>>> it or accept it. Thanks for considering the issue.
>>>> Now to your poem. I like it much much better! It's smooth, still very
>>>> visual, and now makes clearer the narrative whole [start, middle,
>>>> finish],
>>>> so that the 'feel' and fact of your theme and point stay sharp.
>>>>
>>>> Natch, tho, I always 'cut' redundancies and distracting excursions, so
>>>> I've
>>>> removed them, below. My opinion only, acourse! Figured you'd like that
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Judy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2009/4/2 andrew burke <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>
>>>> What do retired people who write poetry do but fiddle and fart around
>>>>
>>>>> with
>>>>> their own words. Here is the latest and perhaps last version of that
>>>>> lumpy
>>>>> text I threw at you earlier this week. Thanks to Judy, Patrick, Doug,
>>>>> Frederick and anyone else who addressed the mess for me. Off list,
>>>>> Andrew
>>>>> Taylor also helped steer me right.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Poetical Works (title)
>>>>>
>>>>> Forty six years on
>>>>> and still I warm my hands
>>>>> over it. It opens me out like
>>>>> a choir singing rounds
>>>>> in eighteenth century London.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I take it down from the shelf to
>>>>> remember her, sophisticated lady
>>>>> in a Sydney harbourside mansion who
>>>>> placed Blake's poems in my hands
>>>>> patted their flimsy skin, aged veinless patina.
>>>>> 'We know you'll enjoy this, boy.'
>>>>>
>>>>> I went down my own back roads
>>>>> through cities and fields,
>>>>> an awkward pelican landing
>>>>> on this seat this morning
>>>>> remembering my bottle-scarred muse alive
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> with Blake's pulse in the skein of days.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------[altered by jp]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks all.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew
>>>>> http://hispirits.blogspot.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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