medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Nancy Spies <[log in to unmask]>
> Is there a way to work out the number of monks? I am thinking that the
number of daily loaves of bread might give an estimation, that there might be
a rule-of-thumb applicable here?
i would think that you could only arrive at a *minimum* number of [true]
monks, unless you had assurance that the documents available dealt with the
*total* amount of food comming in --Paul's observation about the various uses
to which "flour" could be put making the point (though making beer from flour
might have somewhat mixed results).
most reliable, of course, would be a document which mentioned the actual
number of monks, and these are rather scarce on the ground.
the only one of those which i know of is a surviving charter of Charles the
Bald, commemorating the foundation of the royal collegial "abbey" of St.
Corneille of Compiegne and which speaks of "100 canons" --which has always
struck me as an extraordinary number, for the middle of the 9th century.
From: jbugslag <[log in to unmask]>
>at St Germain des Pres in Paris in the 17th century, each monk had a daily
allotment of 2 litres of wine. The only way I can imagine them getting
through a day without getting totally pissed is that they would have shared it
with their servants, and in your context it might be even more natural to
consider not just the monks themselves and any lay brothers there might have
been, but monastic servants in general.
there is a book, i thought with the title "The Abbey of St. Germain in the
17th century," which should deal with the surviving documents, but i can't
seem to find it.
i would be cited somewhere in this:
Les Mauristes à Saint-Germain-des-Prés : actes du colloque de Paris, 2
décembre 1999 / édités par Jean-Claude Fredouille.
Paris : Institut d'études augustiniennes, 2001.
(Collection des études augustiniennes. Série Moyen-Age et temps modernes,
36)
but i don't have access to that at the moment.
of course, extapolating back in time from the Maurist gentlemen scholards of
St. Germain in c. 17 to the rough-n-ready 12th c. is a rather dodgey exercise;
but the idea that the "allotment" of food/wine might have extended to the
non-DOMini of the house sounds like a good supposition, lacking evidence to
the contrary.
i've seen enough tangential evidence in the charters to suggest to me that
members of the aristocracy who became monks (and most professed monks *were*
members of the aristocracy, high or low) may often have been accompanied by
family retainers of one sort or another who also became lay brothers or even
monks.
there may have been some restriction of this (probably ancient) custom by
suchlike GoodyGoodies as the early Cistercians, but i note that when Louis
VII's kid brother, Henry D. France, came to be a monk in 1146, he was
accompanied by:
"André. Originaire de Paris. Accompagne Henri, frère de Louis VII, lors de
sa visite à Clairvaux vers 1146. Sur la demande de ce dernier, saint Bernard
le convertit comme par miracle.
"Sources: Vita prima, IV, 3, col. 330C-331B."
(Laurent Veyssière, “Le personnel de l’abbaye de Clairvaux au XIIe
siècle,” Cîteaux, Commentarii Cistercienses, LI, 2000, pp. 17-90, at p.
34, no. 25).
so, miraculous intervention could trump even a Reforming Spirit.
c
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