This discussion raises a number of issues on the authenticity and date of
texts:

*Archaeological corroboration for the LDS scriptures is lacking (or largely
so).  Accordingly, I do not think they have value as a historical source.
The best that can be said of them is that they were produced by a person
familiar with and inspired by the Bible, probably the King James Version.
Personally I regard it as a work of fiction.

*Isaiah forms part of the Hebrew scriptures, which were (at worst) edited
into their present form shortly after the Exile, i.e. 5th century BC, using
earlier sources.  While modern archaeology will quibble with what is in the
Biblical texts on issues of detail, they are generally reliable historical
texts, though (of course) with a Judaic agenda.  However much a person may
agree or disagree with the God-related agenda, the context is that of the
period to which it claims to relate.  Isaiah claims to be from the reigns of
Uzziah (776-736 BC) to Hezekiah (715-687 BC).  The allusion is suggested to
be to Isaiah 34, which has no date, but is placed after Is. 6 "In the year
when king Uzziah died" and Is. 36 "in the 14th year of King Hezekiah.  Is.
20 refers to Sargon II capturing Ashdod, which is thought to have occurred
about 715 BC.  (This date comes from the Wikipedia article, which cites
reputable sources).  It follows that the Is. 34 allusion comes a literary
source probably from the final years of the 8th century BC.

*Homer's Odyssey is slightly more difficult.  It purports to relate to the
period immediately following the siege of Troy, variously dated by ancient
authors to 12th-14th century BC.  Recent work has suggested that Odysseus
returned home after 10 years of wandering in 1178 (see Wikipedia article on
that, again citing a reputable source).  However the Iliad and Odyssey (see
the beginning of its article on Iliad) are thought to have descended in oral
tradition until written down perhaps in 8th or 9th centuries BC.  The
language is archaic compared to Classical Greek, but not as archaic as the
Greek of linear B (of the Mycenaean era).  What we cannot know is how much
the Odyssey changed in the course of transmission, and whether the text
comes from 900 or 1150 BC.

I am a Christian, and believe the Bible (though not uncritically) and in
God.  I do not follow ancient Greek religion and thus do not believe in
Zeus, Hera, Hermes, etc.  However in approaching each (Homer and the Bible)
as a contemporary literary source, we should be able to draw conclusions
from them, particularly on incidental matters, such as these allusions to
swords.  Dismissing religious texts as of no value historically, because of
not believing their theological implications anti-intellectual.
Nevertheless, we are left with the problem that the texts are in ancient
languages, where the precise meanings of words is not always certain.  I
know some Greek and no Hebrew, and am thus hardly qualified to comment on
the precise meanings of the texts.

Peter King
49, Stourbridge Road,
Hagley,
Stourbridge
West Midlands
DY9 0QS
01562-720368
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-----Original Message-----
From: Arch-Metals Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
Scott Mackenzie
Sent: 06 January 2009 16:34
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: "bathing" a sword


From what I can tell, quenching was practiced during this time.  Homer
mentions it in the "The Odyssey" when the Cyclops was killed:

"As when a man who works as a blacksmith plunges a screaming great axe
blade or adze into cold water, treating it for temper, since this is the
way steel is made strong, even so Cyclops' eye sizzled about the beam of
the
olive...." Odyssey 9.389-9394, translation by R. Lattimore

As I recall this was around 880BC.  If there are other references, I
would love to see the citations.

Certainly, the idea of quenching the sword in the heavens to harden it
against the forces of evil has a nice symbolism in it...

Scott

D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD
Technical Specialist - Heat Treating Products
Houghton International, Inc.
Madison and Van Buren Aves.
484-467-0285 (cell)
610-666-4007 (office)

-----Original Message-----
From: Arch-Metals Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Bart Torbert
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: "bathing" a sword

I looked in Strong's Bible concordance.  The original Hebrew word used
in
Isaiah 34 is #7301 "raw-vaw".  This word can be translated; bathe, make
drunk, satiate, satisfy, and soak.

It seems to be a good parrallel to "quench".

If we take into account the old idea of the "ether" (a fluid that filled
the
void of outer space), I think we can safely assume that there is a an
analogy made to normal metal processing.

Next question is when did the quenching of swords first begin.  Was it
practiced in Isaiah's time, which would be about 700 B.C.?

Also do we have any lists of Hebrew metal working terms?

Bart