Hi all
good to see such debate going on over a weekend.
I've read the posts and considered the points raised by Peter and Roger, and feel that in this case Roger was not overtly promoting a product, However Peter is correct the list should not be used for commercial purposes or hawking wares.
It's a fine line and I appreciate that sometimes it's hard to discuss things without appearing partisan, I continue to be impressed by the professional approach our list members exhibit.
If anyone has any issues regarding this please contact me off list.
Thanks
Rob
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-----Original Message-----
From: Virtual Learning Environments on behalf of Peter Kilcoyne
Sent: Sun 12/10/2008 5:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [VLES] Struggling with Learnwise VLE
Roger
Roger I think you've made some really useful contributions and I hope you continue to but I feel it is essential for the integrity of this list that suppliers and consultants do not push their own products. That is not what this list was set up for. If we allow one or two people to do it we could potentially open up the floodgates for any commercial company to join the list and flog their products. The function of this very valuable list would then be ruined.
I'm sure there are people on Schools, Colleges and Universities out there using other VLEs and its up to them to say what they like or don't like about them if they choose to
all best
Peter Kilcoyne
Director of ILT
Worcester College of Technology
www.wortech.ac.uk <http://www.wortech.ac.uk/>
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From: Virtual Learning Environments on behalf of Roger Broadie
Sent: Sun 12/10/2008 15:19
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [VLES] Struggling with Learnwise VLE
Peter,
We have had very similar debates within Naace, about the use of the Naace talk-list, and as a member of the Naace Board of Management I have been right in the centre of this, so am well aware of the issues and therefore took care in the drafting of my response. (Though note that what I am writing here is a purely personal response to your comment Peter.)
It would surely not be right for it to be possible for Moodle to be promoted freely in this list, but for there to be constraints on a similar level of conversation about platforms from commercial providers.
You can of course take the stance that as I am currently employed by a commercial company that I should not be commenting on this list. There are two points to be made here:
- over the last several years I have gained insight into issues around learning platforms as the impartial chair of European Education Partnership meetings, as the independent leader of activities such as the Naace Learning Platforms and BSF Think Tanks and involvement in other Naace meetings, as an independent consultant, doing a study of schools using Learnwise plus work for numerous other companies in ICT-in-education that bears on learning platforms, and now as you rightly say, from the privileged contact I have with schools using Frog, from my role with Frog. The point is that sources of insight need to be referenced; people have a right to know what experience and prejudices have produced the comments made, and I could not have made a balanced comment without mentioning Frog given what is visible in schools in the 'VLE plus lots of other functionality' category.
- if the list misses out on the expertise in the commercial sector, it will be cutting of its nose to spite its face, as there is a great pool of expertise in all the companies involved with learning platforms, in many cases provided by people with considerable experience of using platforms in education, before they moved to join a commercial company.
We are all on a very important journey that will make radical changes in education, and the insights that led such people to the decision to move from an education post to a commercial one don't stop growing just because of that move. In fact it is likely their insight is considerably enhanced, because they can more clearly see both sides of the arguments.
The conclusion we have come to in Naace is that while overt promotion is not expected on the Naacetalk list, input from members of Naace employed by commercial companies certainly is, for the expertise they can offer. And in the knowledge that those reading posts can make up their own minds whether they are being 'sold' to, or whether the poster, being actively involved in development is giving useful insights from their perspective in a reasonably balanced way.
Should I over-step the mark I trust you will certainly let me know, but I don't feel I did so on this occasion. And I do feel strongly that lists such as this should not exercise thought control - let the readers judge.
Best regards,
Roger.
On 12 Oct 2008, at 14:17, Peter Kilcoyne wrote:
while I agree with some of the points Roger makes particularly regarding SMT buy in and whole school initiatived there are a couple of issues that I would wish to debate. In particular I feel strongly this list shoud not be used to suppliers or consultants to push their own products or services, I'll come to this later.
As an unashamed Moodle enthusiast I would very much disagree with the point regarding Moodle evangelists only having experience of Moodle. The reason most Moodle enthusiasts are so enthusiastic are that they have used other VLEs first had limited success and have moved to Moodle and had much greater success. For example the institution I work at at the moment had used WebCT for 4 years and had 30 active courses. after two years with Moodle that had risen to over 600. The main reason for this I would argue is how simple Moodle is for even IT terified teachers to use. Roger is right that Moodle needs supporting but there are plenty of organisations offering Moodle support at a fraction of the cost of a normal VLE license (1-4K per annum I believe is typical).
I'd also like to point out that I think its very questionable for Roger to use this list to promote a VLE that he has a commercial interest in. I appreciate that he has acknowledged his interest in Frog but my understanding of the rules of this list (and this kind of thing has occurred before) is that this is not on. The list is for users of VLEs to discuss issues not suppliers or consultants to push there own product or services.
BTW who is moderating this list at the moment?
all best
Peter Kilcoyne
Director of ILT
Worcester College of Technology
www.wortech.ac.uk <http://www.wortech.ac.uk/>
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01905 725583
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-----Original Message-----
From: Virtual Learning Environments on behalf of Roger Broadie
Sent: Sun 12/10/2008 13:06
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [VLES] Struggling with Learnwise VLE
Tom,
I agree strongly with Liz Summerfield's points, you have to think this
through deeply and you need to do this with someone on the senior
leadership team.
I note you got several responses from people keen on Moodle and this
indicates one of the problems; most people only have real experience
of the system they use, and tend to become somewhat evangelical about
it because of the effort they put into getting it going, as well as
because they chose the system that most appealed to them (and this
list has a higher percentage of Moodle users than schools generally).
Which brings us to the second problem; schools use learning platforms
in very diverse ways, and you need the system which will best suit the
ways your school needs to use it, which means thinking deeply about
the school culture and educational philosophy, school community,
nature of your catchment area and desire of the senior leadership team
to embrace the change that can be catalysed by a really effective
digital environment.
I have been fortunate to have been in contact with a pretty wide range
of learning platforms, because of work I have done with the E.E.P.,
Naace, through work as an independent consultant, and in my current
role with Frog - but I am sure you can judge what 'health warnings'
you need to apply to my comments below. The things that have
influenced my thinking I recently pulled together the references to -
this list won't take attachments so I will send it separately, if
anyone else wants it drop me an email.
My advice is:
1) The world has moved on rapidly from Learnwise and it is not being
developed, so it is a dead end. Getting an effective digital
environment to complement the social and physical environments of the
schools is THE critical catalyst for transforming education for the
21st century. So plan to replace Learnwise before next academic year.
A good schedule would be initial explorations of what is available
between now and BETT, conversations at BETT with the suppliers you
have thinned the list down to, with purchase of the new system early
Spring, implementation and initial training for the core group in the
Summer term, and launch to the whole school Sep 09.
2) The only way for a secondary school to properly implement a
learning platform is as a whole school initiative. Unless all teachers
and all staff are using the system, most of the initial pay-back will
not materialise and the system will be used only the few and will be
marginal in terms of impact. But if you do implement for the whole
school properly, impact can be massive and the system can help the
school to get onto a much steeper improvement path - look at the
schools that have achieved this. The critical implication of a whole
school approach, is that the Headteacher has to be 100% behind the
development, because some staff will resist changing work processes
and need to be pushed over the initial (small) pain barrier. Watch the
video of Domenic Volpe talking to Naace Conference about this. (You
also need to ensure all staff have laptops and that the school network
is solid.)
3) There are basically two kinds of 'learning platform' around at the
moment, which you could categorise as 'just VLE' and 'VLE plus lots of
other online functionality'. The 'Becta List' was all about hosted
platforms to provide 'virtual learning spaces' for all pupils in all
schools, and as a result the process selected only large companies,
with hosted systems, with the scale to implement platforms for
hundreds of schools in a short time scale. The Becta list also
focussed only on 'VLE functionality' and not the wider needs of
schools for things like a public website, community portal, online
admin systems for teachers, pupils and parents, student voice areas
and so on (not to mention the parent reporting requirements now coming
in). Some of the systems from companies on the Becta list have
developed a fair bit since the list was put together, but the key
issue is that VLE functionality is now being subsumed into bigger
systems, that provide for these wider needs. So companies providing
'just VLE' don't give you what you need to be future-proof.
4) The long term trend (driven by BSF amongst other forces) is to move
to 'managed learning environments' well integrated with MIS and
organisational IT systems. The sooner you move down this route the
better, because working practices and teaching/learning approaches are
now changing fast in a significant number of schools, and your staff
are going to get left behind professionally unless they start to gain
experience of this. There are essentially three systems that you can
look at for this:
- Sharepoint based Windows systems, with a VLE such as Kaleidos or
Assimilate or Fronter incorporated within it.
- Frog, which is an alternative to Sharepoint (LAMP-based), not as
'corporate' but considerably easier for staff to create in, develop
and control, which again gives you the VLE functionality and all the
wider functionality you need.
- Moodle plus other open-source systems integrated with it. Moodle is
a course-based VLE and does not itself give you effective content
management, admin systems etc.
If you go the Moodle route, be clear that it is not 'free' - you need
sufficient technically competent staff in school to set it up and to
support it; sufficient to ensure that if one or even two key staff
leave you still have people who can run and develop it - which is why
FE colleges quite often use Moodle, they have technical teams able to
do this, whereas few schools can afford such a team). Frog is provided
as a managed service, as is Sharepoint usually.
When you look at all the costs including staff, there is little
difference between cost of Moodle and cost of Frog or Sharepoint based
systems. But in any event it is not the initial purchase or annual
system costs which really matter; it is the changes the digital
environment will make possible in the school, to make the work of
everyone more efficient and effective, and to save costs in other
ways. When you look at this properly, particularly how staff can use
time differently, the positive benefits and cost savings hugely
outweigh differences in system costs.
If you want to pick up any of these points and discuss them further,
do contact me off-list.
Regards
Roger.
On 9 Oct 2008, at 12:04, tshaw wrote:
Dear All,
Any advice greatfully recieved:
I have taken on the role of E-Learning Co-ordinator at our secondary
school, and we are currentley using 'Learnwise' for the VLE. This is
proving quite unfriendly. Myself and the school technicians are
struggling to upload a relatively straightforward 'VLE ready' piece
of software, published by longman. We think we can solve the
problems (mainly due, we think, to the number of files that need to
be uploaded), but I'm worried that this will become a trial
everytime we want to upload/use all but the simplest of courses.
so.....
Do we ditch learnwise at this early stage, and if so, can anyone
recommend a VLE system currently in use in a secondary school?
Anyone with any prior experience of Learnwise please feel free to
add any general comments about the system!
Thankyou in advance
Tom
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