Hi Chris and CRISIS FORUM,
I would suggest that you try to separate Money from Carbon in your thinking.
These are two distinct things, one is ostensibly of positive value, and the other is ostensibly of negative value. Asking people to pay Money for Carbon is therefore illogical.
Therefore you base a company's Cap and Cut regime on the basis of their current Carbon use, not on their sales figures. The end point can be determined by having done some calculation of how this business is essential to the running of the national infrastructure, and effectively working out the Carbon contribution per citizen.
Even in the EU ETS there are some "protected" businesses, their Carbon will not be cut completely. "Essential Carbon Services" will continue to be exempt from the Cap to a large extent.
You say : "Economists recommend auctioning" : not all economists recommend auctioning.
You say :
>
> Economists recommend auctioning, because that provides government
> revenue which can either (1) be recycled to the population, either on an
> an equal per capita basis or through the tax and benefits system to make
> it more progressive, or (2) be used for mitigating and adapting to
> climate change, or a mixture of (1) and (2)
>
You have made the basic assumption that Carbon has to be paid for, thereby equating the Value of Carbon with the Value of Money.
Cash recycling is not what is needed here. We need hard and fast Carbon cuts. Carbon Trading between Corporates is not going to achieve hard and fast Carbon cuts. Extracting revenue from high Carbon businesses is not going to de-Carbonise those businesses.
What needs to be controlled here is Carbon, not Money.
jo.
+44 77 17 22 13 96
http://www.changecollege.org.uk
> Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:47:43 +0100
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: European Carbon Control : Why I will NOT be signing the Avaaz petition
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> But how do you assign quotas to business, which is what the EU ETS is
> about?
>
> You can't assign it purely on the sales value of the company's products,
> or some other basis which aims at equality, because some companies are
> much more energy intensive than others, so you either have to
> grandfather (ie base allowances on past emissions, which is what the EU
> ETS does now, effectively giving away the right to pollute to current
> polluters, or auction.
>
> Economists recommend auctioning, because that provides government
> revenue which can either (1) be recycled to the population, either on an
> an equal per capita basis or through the tax and benefits system to make
> it more progressive, or (2) be used for mitigating and adapting to
> climate change, or a mixture of (1) and (2)
>
> Chris
>
> SoW Net wrote:
>
>> I agree with Jo in principle, and assume carbon quotas need to be
>> assigned per head of population - as envisaged under Contraction and
>> Convergence, but even there trading is included between above and
>> below quota countries, and this will have monetary value.
>>
>> Best wishes from Jim
>>
>> *Sign up on-line to VALUE LIFE ITSELF ABOVE ALL ELSE !!!
>> and support the
>> NEW MOVEMENT FOR SURVIVAL
>> **www.m-4-s.net* * & **www.save-our-world.net*
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "CHRIS KEENE" >>
>> To:>
>> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 2:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: European Carbon Control : Why I will NOT be signing the
>> Avaaz petition
>>
>> So how are your carbon quotas to be assigned Jo, if not by auctioning?
>> Do you want them grandfathered as they are now, giving them away free to
>> polluters?
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> jo abbess wrote:
>>
>>>Yes, there's a big chinwag going on in European quarters, but no, I
>> shall not be signing the Avaaz petition this time :-
>>>
>>>http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_our_future_europe/?cl=133392283&v=2242
>>>
>>>Their big point (in a big font size) is "Europe should not hand out
>> free permits to pollute after 2013".
>>>
>>>The
>>>option that they're hinting at is that the 100% Auction of Carbon
>>>Permits currently scheduled to be instated in 2020 should be drawn back
>>>to 2013 instead.
>>>
>>>I do not agree with the Auctioning of Carbon
>>>Permits. I spent a very long time looking at the Kyoto2 arguments from
>>>Oliver Tickell and decided that I am against.
>>>
>>>My reasoning is
>>>this : Money can never be made an adequate medium- to long-term proxy
>>>value for Carbon. In other words, a Carbon Price cannot be made to
>>>control Carbon.
>>>
>>>The reason for this is axiomatic : the value
>>>of Money itself derives principally from Carbon, since we are so
>>>dependent on Fossil Fuels.
>>>
>>>Thus, if you Price Carbon, the
>>>whole Economy is impacted, and re-stabilises itself at a lower
>>>"density" of value after a very short time.
>>>
>>>Rather like a Bubble, yes.
>>>
>>>This will not cause businesses and governments to de-Carbonise. It
>> will just impoverish everyone and everything.
>>>
>>>My proposal is a strict application of Carbon Quotas, to implement a
>> durable, real Carbon Cap.
>>>
>>>In effect, a controlled Recession.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>jo.
>>>+44 77 17 22 13 96
>>>http://www.changecollege.org.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:30:14 +0100
>>>>From: [log in to unmask]
>>>>Subject: 48 hours to green Europe's future]
>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>PLEASE FORWARD WIDELY
>>>>
>>>>-------- Original Message --------
>>>>Subject: [SPAM] 48 hours to green Europe's future
>>>>Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 06:54:49 -0700
>>>>From: Paul Hilder - Avaaz.org
>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear friends around Europe,
>>>>
>>>>Far from the eyes of the media, *elected representatives in the European
>>>>Parliament are writing a climate and energy plan for our continent.* As
>>>>citizens, we've campaigned hard for a global deal to stop catastrophic
>>>>global warming, and Europe's negotiators have driven progress in
>>>>international talks -- but if big polluters succeed in watering down
>>>>Europe's own climate action plan, all our momentum will be lost.[1] And
>>>>that's just what's happening right now.
>>>>
>>>>*This Tuesday afternoon, European parliamentarians are gathering to
>>>>finalise their proposals -- but the whole plan is being undermined by
>>>>industry lobbyists demanding they lock in massive "permits to pollute"*,
>>>>which would put emissions targets completely out of reach for 2020 and
>>>>beyond.[2] Before it's too late, *in the next 36 hours, let's deluge
>>>>representatives from our own countries with emails and phone calls* --
>>>>urging them not to give in to the lobbyists, and instead to put forward
>>>>strong plans to build a sustainable future for our societies, showing
>>>>the world the way forward.
>>>>
>>>>Just click the link below to see the names and phone numbers of the
>>>>representatives from your own country -- we've added a few "talking
>>>>points" you can use in your emails and phone calls:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_our_future_europe/?cl=133392283&v=2242
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>*68 people from 27 countries -- the members of the European parliament
>>>>on its environment committee -- can fix this plan.* And there are tens
>>>>or hundreds of thousands of us in every one of these countries.
>>>>
>>>>We're told that the most effective thing we can do is for as many as
>>>>possible of us to email or call the offices of those representatives in
>>>>our own countries (particularly those from the conservative EPP umbrella
>>>>party, who have shown most signs of giving in to the lobbyists), making
>>>>the case for them not to compromise on permits to pollute and other
>>>>backward-looking loopholes, and asking them to invest in building a
>>>>cleaner, greener future for Europe. *At a time of economic difficulty
>>>>and high fossil fuel prices, efficiency and sustainability become even
>>>>more vital.*[3]
>>>>
>>>>*Just click the link below for everything you need -- names, phone
>>>>numbers, email addresses and suggestions about what to say. *And don't
>>>>delay -- we have hours, not days, to make a difference.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_our_future_europe/?cl=133392283&v=2242
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>With hope and determination,
>>>>
>>>>Paul, Pascal, Veronique, Graziela, Ricken, Ben, Iain, Milena and the
>>>>whole Avaaz team
>>>>
>>>>Sources:
>>>>
>>>>1. For Avaaz's previous climate campaign successes, see
>>>>http://www.avaaz.org/en/bali_report_back/
>>>>
>>>>Reuters: "EU urged to agree on climate before UN talks open":
>>>>http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LU300512.htm
>>>>
>>>>2. European Voice: "EPP-ED group split over carbon emissions"
>>>>http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/imported/epp-ed-group-split-over-carbon-emissions/62506.aspx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>AFP: "WWF criticises attempts to water down EU's green targets"
>>>>http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hJvhQ9ClFitMa4husGWkUZRYJxQQ
>>>>
>>>>Financial Times: "Climate change fears over industry lobbyists"
>>>>http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4e47f656-88ba-11dd-a179-0000779fd18c.html
>>>>
>>>>EUX.tv: "EU set for 'Super Tuesday' with controversial vote on climate"
>>>>http://www.eux.tv/article.aspx?articleId=20536
>>>>
>>>>3. UK Stern Review: "Ignoring climate change will damage economic
>> growth":
>>>>http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/4/3/executive_summary.pdf
>>>>
>>>>EU carbon market will not raise power prices:
>>>>http://www.euractiv.com/en/climate-change/report-eu-carbon-market-raise-power-prices/article-175667
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>*ABOUT AVAAZ*
>>>>Avaaz.org is an independent, not-for-profit global campaigning
>>>>organization that works to ensure that the views and values of the
>>>>world's people inform global decision-making. (Avaaz means "voice" in
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You are getting this message because you signed "BAN CLUSTER BOMBS NOW!
>>>>" on 2008-05-27 using the
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>> .
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>>>>
>>>
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