Well understood, Dave.  BTW, sometimes 'one' is the best of pronouns to
use----rarely, but......
One tries to stick by one's mates----a sometimes perilous job, done much
more thoroly and consistently by males, I've found, for their 'mates' than
by females for theirs----yet there's the occasional necessity to 'cut them
loose' for one's own survival.  Didn't realise that until a few short years
ago.  Staying around a 'toxic' person can be nothing short of insane-making.
 How, then, is that a help to anyone?

not a fast learner, me   <g>

Judy

2008/9/11 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>

> Just to further clear this up, Joodles, and I know I shouldn't come
> out with too much personal stuff on a public list, Lydia is a paragon
> of humanity and a beacon of light and understanding, Victoria is
> almost the opposite, but she's also my oppo, and one sticks by one's
> mates in times of difficulty (I get told off by Lydia for my use of
> the personal pronoun 'one' btw)
>
> Hope this makes sense.
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
> 2008/9/11 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]>:
> > Lydia and her sons' situations are horrible!  It just seems so tragic!
>  One
> > feels so helpless.
> > She and they are fortunate to have your support.  If the situation was
> > exacerbated by alcohol, then that may be a path to pursue.  Cognitive
> > [Behavioral] Therapy may be another helpful path.
> >
> > David Burns' books [esp _Ten Days to Self-Esteem_] surprisingly and
> freshly
> > [even hilariously!] reveal the pervasive illogic of a 'depressed'
> person's
> > thinking.  Cognitive Therapy has deservedly won the respect of your
> > country's medical establishment as well as your government's investment
> in
> > CT-practitioner training.  I do wish my country would shift its focus
> much
> > more radically [as UK does] away from drug therapy as the primary way to
> > 'cure' 'depression'.  P'raps our power-brokers are more deeply locked
> into
> > the pharm industry than yours.
> > Regarding my critique of your poem, Dave, I intended nothing but high fun
> > and wordplay, and really enjoyed writing it up.  Honestly, I think your
> > poem's a lovely little gem!
> >
> > Best, of course, and to Lydia, as well,
> >
> > Judy
> >
> >
> >
> > 2008/9/11 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> >> Judy
> >>
> >> the first line is meant to be seen as ridiculous, absurd. I was trying
> >> to parody attitudes I don't share, I agree I lay myself open as being
> >> the author of that line, the behind-it-all is my concern about my pal
> >> who had to call in the police last night because her two eldest were
> >> trying to murder each other in the kitchen: she was put in the
> >> difficulty of being a woman not being able to cope with male violence.
> >> I've managed to give her a smile today but it's been hard going, for
> >> some strange reason she isn't her normal bubbly self: maybe the
> >> forensic teams being round in her kitchen had something to do with it.
> >>
> >> I do agree though that my risible couplet, taken away from the context
> >> of my tellings, could be seen as something its not meant to be.
> >>
> >> All the Best
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >> 2008/9/11 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]>:
> >> > Indeed, the Scot is saggyacious, his reputation as an editor---not to
> >> > mention the most obvious of his writing talents, poetry; in addition
> to
> >> his
> >> > tour de force near-finished manuscript for a book on cant language
> from
> >> > 1500-1900 in England and America---suggests that his recommending
> "but"
> >> in
> >> > your second line would be the literarily wisest move.
> >> > However, [as you knew I was going to say] you two may wish to
> consider,
> >> > beyond a reasonable poetic concern for the bounds of careful-measured
> >> > syllables, just what your words---without a "but"---mean.
> >> >
> >> > Your being the author of those words is beside the point of what the
> poem
> >> > means to its readers [i.e., I want to ignore your authorship for the
> sake
> >> of
> >> > riding roughshod over you].
> >> >
> >> > The poem can mean:  "Your leaping tits hit me in the eye, and I don't
> >> know
> >> > why.  Now I'm shy."  Did you consider that meaning?
> >> >
> >> > [BTW, not to distract us from this urgent argument, but it seems so
> much
> >> > more lovely to say the first phrase this way:  "Your leaping tit hits
> me
> >> in
> >> > the eye."  Not to mention that if only one eye of yours is being hit,
> >> then
> >> > likely only one of the tits is doing the hitting.]
> >> >
> >> > That aside, you may reject my reasoning that the person having his eye
> >> hit
> >> > by a tit in fact wonders why the tit has hit his eye----rather than
> >> > wondering why he is, subsequently, shy.  If my tit were hitting
> someone's
> >> > eye, I'd damn well make it obvious as to why!  However, that might be
> a
> >> > little more information than we need to know for a Proper Critique of
> >> your
> >> > poem.  Let's move on.
> >> >
> >> > I still think, for the sake of the powerful, rolling movement [not of
> the
> >> > tit, but of the phrases] in that lovely 'but-less' last line, you'd be
> >> > advised:  delete the but, but subtract a tit.
> >> >
> >> > [This isn't a sexist critique at all, and I can't do parody]
> >> >
> >> > Judy
> >> >
> >> > 2008/9/11 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
> >> >
> >> >> this thing does need an alteration, second line should read 'but now
> >> >> I'm shy', otherwise the rhythm doesn't click. I owe this correction
> as
> >> >> well as to my own mind to the sagacious Scot R.Hamilton.
> >> >>
> >> >> 2008/9/11 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>:
> >> >> > Ode by David Bircumshaw
> >> >> >
> >> >> > (aged 53 and a half)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Your leaping tits hit me in the eye,
> >> >> > I don't know why, now I'm shy.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > (this isn't a sexist piece at all, rather a parody of such
> attitudes)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Best
> >> >> >
> >> >> > dave
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2008/9/11 Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]>:
> >> >> >> "Floating breasts" reminds me of what Auden said was his worst
> line
> >> >> >> (perhaps not surprisingly, concerning a girl, whose name escapes
> me
> >> >> >> but was something classically Greek) which went something like:
> "and
> >> >> >> (Whatshername) / whose leaping breasts I pursued / through one
> long
> >> >> >> summer".
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Brings a whole new set of images to pneumatic...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> xA
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au
> >> >> >> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
> >> >> >> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > David Bircumshaw
> >> >> > Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> >> >> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> >> >> > The Animal Subsides
> http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> >> >> > Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> David Bircumshaw
> >> >> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> >> >> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> >> >> The Animal Subsides
> http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> >> >> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> David Bircumshaw
> >> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> >> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> >> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> >> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David Bircumshaw
> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>