medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Late in the MA the absolute and ordained power of God were much discussed.
Francis Oakley has written a lot on this topic. But i agree that the
11th century does not seem to have this terminology.
Tom Izbicki
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Cecelia,
> Yes, from one standpoint, youıre right, everything is contingent on
> Godıs will. But thatıs really a view that emerged during the development
> of
> scholastic theology within universities of the late 12th-14th centuries.
> There are all sorts of debates, for example, about whether God had to
> create
> the universe the way he did, or if he could have created a radically
> different universe.
> Stop and think about this. If you really embrace the idea of
> everything
> being contingent on Godıs will, then no action can be inherently good or
> evil. Its goodness or evilness rests entirely on Godıs decision to label
> that action good or evil. For example, God could have declared murder
> good
> and charity evil. Later medieval theologians do explore these questions,
> but
> it represents a more complex approach to theology than most 11th century
> theologians contemplated. I think that early medieval theologians very
> much
> operated on the assumption that penitential acts were commanded because
> things like prayer, fasting, and pilgrimage were inherently meritorious
> actions.
>
> Andrew E. Larsen
>
> On 9/10/08 2:37 PM, "Cecilia Gaposchkin" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>> For Andrew again,
>> I loved this discussion, and it is indeed very helpful. I think I may
>> use your
>> analogy myself (if I may). But I still don't understand how the
>> Bernardian
>> theology is in contradiction to the assumed/urbanite formulation of ca.
>> 1095 -
>> isn't everything contingent on God's will? I can see that it would be a
>> careful refinement, and one that would feel somewhat more circumscribed
>> --
>> less absolute -- than the carte blanche of 1095 (though my understanding
>> that
>> an understanding of a plenary indulgence only developed but was not
>> advanced
>> in 1095 in any event). But I don't see how it is a different theology.
>> Again,
>> am I splitting hairs when I should be dividing apples from oranges?
>>
>> thanks.
>> cecilia
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Cecilia Gaposchkin
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>> Andrew,
>>> This is hugely interesting, and your analogy of the "work to get an A"
>>> hugely
>>> clarifying. More later, because I still have questions. Thank you for
>>> taking
>>> the time to answer this so carefully.
>>> cecilia
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>> culture
>>>> Cecelia,
>>>> Let me preface my unpacking by saying that I don't specialize in
>>>> sacramental theology. I teacha course on the Crusades, so what I've
>>>> got to
>>>> say is based on my reading of the documents, old course notes, and
>>>> secondary
>>>> sources that I've dug into so that I can explain this to my students.
>>>> I
>>>> don't know if the term 'contingent merit' was every actually applied
>>>> to
>>>> indulgences. But as I read the material, that's how they're
>>>> conceiving of
>>>> the issues.
>>>> High and late medieval theologians were interested in the
>>>> distinction
>>>> between inherent and contingent qualities and events. For example, if
>>>> I
>>>> hold out a rock and drop it, why does it fall? Is its fall an
>>>> inherent
>>>> element of the rock (Aristotle would say yes), or is its fall
>>>> contingent on
>>>> divine will (as Ockham would say)? For Ockham, even though rocks
>>>> usually
>>>> fall when you drop them, God could one day decide that a particular
>>>> rock
>>>> won't fall but rather fly up into the sky. So the property of
>>>> dropping is
>>>> entirely contingent on God making the repeated choice for rocks to
>>>> fall.
>>>> So let's move to sacramental theology, which was rapidly
>>>> developing in
>>>> the 12th century, as the first several crusades were playing out.
>>>> Confession and penance were a long-established practice in the 11th
>>>> century,
>>>> but the full theology of C&P had not be worked out by the time that
>>>> Urban
>>>> triggers the First Crusade. Urban's indulgence is rooted in the
>>>> principle
>>>> that penance has value because the actions assigned for penance are
>>>> inherently meritorious. It is inherently good to go on a pilgrimage.
>>>> The
>>>> armed pilgrimage to Jerusalem that Urban calls for is such a difficult
>>>> action that the merit of doing it can apply to all penance a knight
>>>> may have
>>>> to do.
>>>> Bernard of Clairvaux offers a very different approach. The action
>>>> of
>>>> the pilgrimage is not of itself meritorious. It is meritorious
>>>> because God
>>>> has decided, out of the goodness of his mercy, to treat the action as
>>>> meritorious. God does not owe us the waiver of poena contained in the
>>>> penitential pilgrimage. Rather, God chooses to put himself into a
>>>> position
>>>> in which he can pretend to owe us the waiver of poena, so that we
>>>> might have
>>>> a chance to gain grace.
>>>> To help my students, here's the analogy I use. If Urban II were
>>>> teaching my class, he would say that any student who did the hard work
>>>> of
>>>> studying for the tests and managed to get all As would earn an A by
>>>> their
>>>> own merit. On the other hand, if Bernard or Innocent III were
>>>> teaching the
>>>> class, he would say that no student in the class can possibly earn an
>>>> A
>>>> (none of them can read Latin, none of them know very much about the
>>>> subject). Rather, out of the goodness of his heart, Bernard says that
>>>> he
>>>> will mercifully accept a certain level of coursework as getting an A,
>>>> even
>>>> if it doesn't really merit that A.
>>>> Knights did not have a formally articulated duty to serve God by
>>>> virtue
>>>> of being knights. They had a duty by virtue of being Christians, but
>>>> knighthood was not vassalage to God, although some 12th century
>>>> churchmen
>>>> made arguments like that.
>>>> Hope this clarifies things
>>>>
>>>> Andrew E. Larsen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/9/08 11:12 AM, "Cecilia Gaposchkin" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>> culture
>>>>> Thank you to everyone who replied to my query. I had actually been
>>>>> reading
>>>>> Maier's book, which is what prompted by question about how "buy outs"
>>>>> actually worked in practice, and in the whole spiritual and actual
>>>>> economy
>>>>> of crusade. And thanks to Jessalyn for the kind words.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like to ask Andrew Larsen, whose post was fantastic, to tell
>>>>> me a
>>>>> bit more about "contingently meritorious" indulgences. I suppose I'm
>>>>> not
>>>>> quite clear on how this is theologically different from the preceding
>>>>> (and,
>>>>> as you say, later) form. In a sense, wouldn't' all penance be
>>>>> meritorious
>>>>> on God's favor? I understand this more as a theological refinement,
>>>>> than
>>>>> as something whcih would then need to be back away from, so may be
>>>>> someone
>>>>> (Andrew?) can unpack this more for me. I mean, I suppose that all
>>>>> "knights" are supposed to fight for their lord out of fidelity, and I
>>>>> have
>>>>> always understood that for the crusades this was no mere analogy but
>>>>> an
>>>>> actual amplification of knighthood's obligation to the Lord. In that
>>>>> sense,
>>>>> it cannot, I suppose, be penitential, and so it could then only be
>>>>> penitential if God allowed it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love clarification.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks thanks, to all.
>>>>> cecilia
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:15 AM, Christopher Crockett
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Jessalynn Bird <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Dear Cecilia,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Sorry for the delayed reply. What period was the vow redemption
>>>>>>> from?
>>>>>>> (This
>>>>>> makes a big difference both in theory and in practice--as far as
>>>>>> both can
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> surmised).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> which is all that kept me from offering a definitive answer to the
>>>>>> original
>>>>>> querry --all those late, Copy-Cat guys are of no interest to us
>>>>>> Genuine
>>>>>> Second
>>>>>> Crusade People.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > By the way, I just read your book on Louis IX with much
>>>>>>> interest. It
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>> absolutely magnificent!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gaposchkin, M. Cecilia.
>>>>>> The making of Saint Louis: kingship, sanctity, and crusade in the
>>>>>> later
>>>>>> Middle
>>>>>> Ages.
>>>>>> Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 2008.
>>>>>> 331 p. : ill., maps
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> yes, doesn't look too bad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> one of those Fly-by-Night U.P.s, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> c
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >On Behalf Of Cecilia Gaposchkin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > I have just been reading about the redemption of crusading vows.
>>>>>>> One
>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>> > documented case involving a nobleman's redemption involved his
>>>>>>> payment
>>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>> > sum of money great enough to fund one miles for one year to go to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> holy
>>>>>>> > land. For this, the nobleman received his plenary indulgence.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Can someone tell me about the said "miles" who would go in the
>>>>>>> nobleman's
>>>>>>> > stead. Would he received the spiritual benefits of crusading?
>>>>>>> Would he
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> > plenary indulgence? Is this a kind of "two for one" deal? Or
>>>>>>> would the
>>>>>>> sum
>>>>>>> > for the redemption, so calculated, be actually sent to the curial
>>>>>>> war
>>>>>> chest,
>>>>>>> > rather than actually fund a replacement crusader.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Thoughts and knowledge will be appreciated.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > thanks
>>>>>>> > cecilia
>>>>>>> >
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