I'm glad, at last, to hear from you. It's always helpful, Anny, to know
what folks are thinking. No doubt you could tell from my explanation in
calling for Joe's voluntarily giving up his co-managership, that I had no
clue as to what, if anything, he had decided on his own or with the advice
of others. Nor did I have any notion of what other listmembers thought of
the issues raised in the timeline of what I felt were his dictatorial
actions.
As always, if there's no voting mechanism in place, and if most of the
members of a group, as is almost always the case, choose to remain silent,
none of us can know what most of us want. I find that frustrating, but it
apparently is the accepted norm.
I feel quite content as a member of this list, recognizing that we are a
wonderfully diverse group, comprising many strong personalities, and those
factors inevitably lead to intense encounters. I see the diversity and
personality-strength as pluses----which should be evident to many of you in
my attempts to keep members from being cut from our list. It's generally my
way, and it's not difficult for me to understand and sympathise with those
who feel the opposite way. But the understanding and sympathy don't stop me
from voicing my views and opinions, from having laughs, making and
commenting on poetry, and in general, being myself---with the most profound
wish that others will be themselves and learn what they can from the mix
that we are.
That said, I see no particular reason to apologise to anyone, Anny. You
perhaps feel better, yourself, having stated your reasons for wanting my
apologies to be given to Fred and to Joe. Your saying it is at least a step
in the right direction: increasing the openness which this list, in my
opinion, needs. Openness is a responsibility, not only of the listmanagers,
but of every member of the group. It's at once a daunting challenge, and a
fantastic opportunity. Many might feel that it "gets in the way"---as well
as so many other things that go on with us here---of "poetry". Perhaps they
are right. But I don't think so.
Judy
2008/7/15 Anny Ballardini <[log in to unmask]>:
> As a co-manager I was consulted, and there was a mail ready to be sent to
> you to apologize to Frederick for your tone. I discard all your points
> Judy.
>
>
> I can understand you have had problems with your trip to England, and that
> this list is a way for you to deal with your disappointment, but please
> understand that there are other members on this list, and that we are
> trying
> to do our best to keep it interesting for all.
>
> I would like you to apologize to Joseph for what you said. And I am saying
> this without having consulted with my co-manager.
>
> My best,
> Anny
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Joe, with nothing I say intended to be an attack on you personally, I am
> > asking for your voluntarily giving up your post as co-manager of this
> list.
> > We listmembers are not privy to back channel communications, if any, that
> > you may have had at any point, so I can only draw conclusions based upon
> > what you write front channel. In your posts clearly labelled
> "co-manager",
> > you have, it seems to me, been dictatorial, have not consulted
> listmembers
> > before making your decisions, and have made erratic judgements and
> > pronouncements. Following is a gathering of those specifics.
> >
> > You must consider the timeline of actions and decisions that you have
> left
> > us with, regarding your co-managership:
> >
> > 1) You resigned your co-managership in the wake of an upset with one of
> > the
> > members whom you wished to cut from the list.
> >
> > 2) Peter Cudmore volunteered to fill your vacated position.
> >
> > 3) You said that you wanted to continue as co-manager, and, without any
> > front channel request for input or advice from us members, you gathered
> > together a group of us to advise you on the difficult issue of whether
> and
> > how listmembers should be removed from the list.
> >
> > 4) Yesterday, you seemed to want a thread discontinued, and that
> > eventually
> > became evident from your saying "the thread is over." Yet we saw no
> > evidence that you had consulted with your co-manager about your decision,
> > nor that you had sought the advice of your self-selected group of
> advisors.
> >
> > 5) Assuming the best---that, indeed, you had consulted Anny and your
> group
> > of advisors---you did not tell us that you had consulted them. You can
> > understand how autocratic that makes you appear to be.
> >
> > 6) Assuming that you did not consult Anny or your advisors, we
> reasonably
> > must wonder why you'd make such an undemocratic move, to the detriment of
> > the list's stated desire for equality and fairness.
> >
> > I suggest your leaving the post, with all my due respect for your hard
> work
> > and your tryings. None of us regards the position as "easy", and few, if
> > any of us, want to have it. But I think that your remaining in the
> > position
> > is divisive, in itself. Surely, that is not a good thing for this list.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Judy
> >
> >
> >
> > 2008/7/14 Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]>:
> >
> > > My understanding, Candice, is that the list is unmoderated in that all
> > the
> > > mail goes through. Nobody checks it ahead of time. If you send it it
> will
> > > show up. (The software can be set to hold messages for approval.) But
> the
> > > list has both two "managers" & an advisory panel, presumably because
> > things
> > > occasionally need to be adjudicated. The managers and the advisory
> panel
> > > work for the best interests of the list as a whole. No messages were
> > > deleted
> > > this morning (US time) & I would consider such an action appropriate in
> > > only
> > > the most extreme case. Hope this clarifies matters.
> > >
> > > Joseph Duemer
> > > Co-Mgr.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 9:21 PM, MC Ward <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joe,
> > > >
> > > > The last I knew was that Jiscmail designated poetryetc an unmoderated
> > > list,
> > > > and I think our welcome message says so too. Has something changed in
> > the
> > > > meantime?
> > > >
> > > > Candice
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Joseph Duemer
> > > Professor of Humanities
> > > Clarkson University
> > > Weblog: sharpsand.net
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
>
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