Hi Jeremy,
The GPL doesn't require that you release any forks / patches back to the
community unless you distribute them though most developers find it
advantageous to give back (so the community fixes your bugs!).
Mono is a resource hog which probably says more about the bad design of
.Net than Mono. libmono and friends is the first thing I remove whenever I
install Ubuntu.
Getting back on topic, I'd much rather do the research to find the closest
open source match for my needs then tweak it gently supported by the
community and possibly a support contract than jump at the expensive "one
true Microsoft" solution and then have to bastardise it out of all
recognition with VB and .NET hacked DLLs all over the place. The latter
always ends in tears.
Drupal is great in this regard as the available modules will satisfy the
vast bulk of users with no modification and it's trivial to setup (couple
of hours from bare metal).
Anyway, I'd better get back to re-flashing my motherboards with coreboot
(LinuxBIOS) to get the full open source top to bottom monty :-)
Regards,
James
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Ottevanger, Jeremy wrote:
> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:13:48 +0100
> From: "Ottevanger, Jeremy" <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Museums Computer Group <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [MCG] CMS specifications
>
> Hi Cristiano,
>
> OK, lunch time, so I'll have a go at answering.
>
> Yes, I'm sure that I'm legally entitled to do what I do with MCMS2002.
> There is a small set of functionality concerned with passing data into
> and out of SQL Server that is a closed DLL (though I guess you can
> override this too, but this might be where licence terms could come it,
> I dunno). Beyond that, though, it's not only possible but necessary to
> build everything using the toolkit that their CMS comprises. The
> expectation is that developers will derive from and override various
> controls that come out of the box. There are still limitations to its
> openness - I guess you could say that you might want to hack into the
> base placeholder control and you don't have the original source for that
> - but then again unless you decide to become a C++ coder you can't
> rewrite the core PHP classes. The point is that you can do pretty much
> whatever you'd actually want to.
>
> I think we may be talking about different things, really. If you're
> working with "proper" OS software, you may do development work that is
> for your specific project, or you may make changes to the core product
> that you feed back into the community. Or you may make such changes and
> the community doesn't accept them. It's no different for me. OK,
> MCMS2002 is not current, but users of it always shared code. MOSS2007,
> the replacement, has a huge user base and again, they share code.
> Developer communities are not synonymous with OS. Equally, OS doesn't
> mean that there will be much of a developer community: I'd bet that
> MOSS2007 has a larger community sharing code than many of the "OS" CMSs
> out there.
> What I'm trying to say is that there are layers to the stack and it may
> not always be important to you that you can fiddle with ALL of layers -
> so which layer do you want to develop yourself, and is that specific
> layer open enough for you? I could go with alternative .Net solutions -
> there are several. I could even find an Open Source .Net solution, but
> some might complain that it's not really OS because it wasn't written
> with an OS language on an OS platform. Well I don't care, there is a
> layer I'm interested in and if I can hack with that layer, then great.
> If I used a Java-based solution I'd be no better off for knowing that I
> could in theory contribute to the development of Java itself. I would
> have no interest in developing Java, only developing *with* it. Likewise
> .Net: although I recognise the vulnerability of using a platform that
> only one company actually develops, I have no interest in developing it
> myself anyway, I'm only actually interested in building stuff with it.
>
> There are lots of reasons for going OS, and I wouldn't decry any of them
> and I'm certainly not anti, nor innately pro-proprietary (instinctively
> I'm the opposite). There are lots of great OS solutions out there, too,
> and there are risks with going with proprietary solutions. But some of
> those reasons or objectives people cite can be realised without opting
> for a solution that is badged "open source", so be clear about what's
> important to you (and of course Mike's right that the financial side of
> things is not exaclty clear-cut). For me, I can code what I want, I can
> share code with others, and I can get data in and out of the CMS, even
> if it's as defunct as an old version of Joomla. It's open enough for me.
> For others, there's a whole political aspect to OS which is important to
> them, moreso than for me. That's cool too, but it's somewhat distinct
> from a developer's problems.
>
> Hi James, re
>
> "Well, with .Net, practically the "CMS is [the] OS [Operating System]"
> which is why I'd avoid it like the plague. Put simply, Microsoft didn't
> create .Net to facilitate cross-platform inter-operability."
>
> I'm not sure I fully get your drift, but each to his own. It's a
> database, you can get stuff in and out, you develop in a language and if
> you or your developers can't work with that language you're stuffed. So
> far, so like [name your poison]. Yup, it's Windows-dependent. For those
> people for whom that's a problem, that's a problem. But that's my point
> about what level of the stack you're interested in, and if you want to
> be OS from bottom to top then fine, but my argument is that the aspects
> of "open source" that are attractive to some people may also be found in
> software that's not OS. For me, platform independence isn't so vital,
> though there's always Mono I guess.
>
> Enough, I didn't inted this to be, as Mike says, an X-vs-Y debate, just
> a suggestion that when procuring software you think, not just in terms
> of OS-or-proprietary, but about what you actually want to achieve
> strategically. Perhaps this will indicate one or the other, but don't
> assume that because you've bought a product you can't do much with it.
> That's pish.
>
> Cheers, Jeremy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Cristiano Bianchi | Keepthinking
> Sent: 17 July 2008 11:03
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [MCG] CMS specifications
>
> Jeremy,
>
> are you sure are legally entitled to do that? The fact that the source
> is 'open', i.e. visible and changeable, typical of web most
> technologies, does not automatically mean you 'own' it and can freely
> change it. In most case you own a license for the software as it is - I
> think.
>
> Moreover, if you change it, you may loose the ability to benefit from
> future upgrade of the software - let alone warranty issues - as you are
> disconnecting and branching off your development from the main stream.
>
> This may not be an issue with the (now defunct?) MS CMS, but for
> products which are alive and being updated, would you not incur in more
> issues in terms of sustainability than the ones that you solve?
>
> With an OS project, if you're interested in developing, you could join
> the community and get your own updates into the main source code.
>
> Thanks,
> Cristiano
>
>
>
>
> On 17 Jul 2008, at 10:43, Ottevanger, Jeremy wrote:
>
>> Can I just point out that having the ability to change (at least a
>> large part of) the code-base is not limited to "open source"
>> solutions? For example, whilst I'm not recommending it, the ageing
>> Microsoft CMS we use is built on .Net and if you can programme that
>> then there's little you can't do. You might not *want* to do certain
>> things because they'd be too complex, although I've not hit that
>> barrier yet - but that could at least in theory apply to open source
>> too - there could be a prohibitive learning curve even if it's all
>> possible in principle. The only thing I've wanted to do that I've not
>> been able to is rewrite the calendar control, but with I think that
>> too may be possible with newer versions of .Net (which they are
>> supposedly opening the code base for).
>>
>> I guess my point is that Open Source is not the only way to get open
>> source i.e. source code you can fix and extend yourself. One other
>> thing is that, whilst it's true of Joomla and Drupal, it would be
>> false to assume that because a CMS is built using a *language* that is
>
>> OS, the CMS is OS - or vice versa.
>>
>> OK, carry on.
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeremy Ottevanger
>> Web Developer, Museum Systems Team
>> Museum of London Group
>> 46 Eagle Wharf Road
>> London. N1 7ED
>> Tel: 020 7410 2207
>> Fax: 020 7600 1058
>> Email: [log in to unmask] www.museumoflondon.org.uk
>> Museum of London is changing. Visit www.museumoflondon.org.uk to find
>> out more.
>> Explore how the Great Fire shaped the city
>> www.museumoflondon.org.uk/londonsburning
>> Jack the Ripper and the East End a major new exhibition at Museum in
>> Docklands, opens 15 May Before printing, please think about the
>> environment
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> Michael Guthrie
>> Sent: 17 July 2008 09:24
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [MCG] CMS specifications
>>
>> Or Joomla!, by far the best PHP CMS ;-) We use it for the
>> www.seayourhistory.org.uk And it has been a great solution.
>>
>> www.joomla.org and now it is 1.5 version it is very good indeed.
>>
>> For a DAMS we use www.dspace.org
>> For an image gallery we use http://gallery.menalto.com integrated into
>
>> Joomla
>>
>> As many have said here, open source solutions can be very advantageous
>
>> in not being locked into a vendor or company to make any
>> customisations or changes to the code base. Much easier to find a
>> single PHP developer than trying to chase a company to change their
>> code and add functionality.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> J Martin
>> Sent: 16 July 2008 21:42
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: CMS specifications
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Seconding Christiano, play with www.opensourcecms.com and email me
>> after you've chosen Drupal (by far the best of the PHP CMS) or Lenya
>> (by far the best of the Java CMS) ;-)
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> James
>>
>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008, James Morley wrote:
>>
>>> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:36:26 +0100
>>> From: James Morley <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Reply-To: Museums Computer Group <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: [MCG] CMS specifications
>>>
>>> Without wishing to start a whole debate, and most certainly not
>> soliciting phone calls from vendors (!), does anyone have any
>> recommendations as to an up to date source of fairly high level,
>> generic CMS specifications / requirements analysis?
>>>
>>> Thanks, James
>>>
>>>
>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> James Morley [log in to unmask]
>>> Website Manager Tel. +44 (0)20 8332 5759
>>> Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew www.kew.org
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> **************************************************
>>> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,
>>> visit
>>
>>> the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
>>> **************************************************
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Your object is to save the world, while still leading a pleasant life.
>>
>> What's that [ http://search.microsoft.com/ ] site running?
>>
>> http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://
>> search.microsoft.com
>>
>> Answer: Linux.
>>
>> [log in to unmask] SDF-EU Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf-eu.org
>>
>> **************************************************
>> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit
>
>> the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
>> **************************************************
>>
>> **************************************************
>> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit
>
>> the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
>> **************************************************
>>
>> **************************************************
>> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit
>
>> the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
>> **************************************************
>
>
>
> --
>
> Cristiano Bianchi
> Keepthinking
>
> Bull Inn Court
> 15 Maiden Lane
> London WC2E 7NG
>
> t. +44 20 7240 8014
> f. +44 20 7240 8015
> m. +44 7939 041169 (uk)
> m. +39 329 533 4469 (it)
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
> **************************************************
> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit
> the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
> **************************************************
>
> **************************************************
> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
> **************************************************
>
--
Your object is to save the world, while still leading a pleasant life.
What's that [ http://search.microsoft.com/ ] site running?
http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://search.microsoft.com
Answer: Linux.
[log in to unmask] SDF-EU Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf-eu.org
**************************************************
For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
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