If the CD Matthew is using is the Chadwyck-Healey one, it is the most complete source (including not only letters and diaries, but, as Matthew says, the Biedermann edition of the conversations), with only a few things left out (mainly the largest part of the Amtliche Schriften). The "Deutsche Literatur von Lessing bis Kafka" can't come near this level of completeness. So if he didn't find the quotation there, I would think that it's probably bogus. (I've worked a lot on Goethe and the French Revolution, and I don't recall having seen the second quotation.) I've had quite a few queries over the years with quotations attributed to Goethe, mostly in English, and most have turned out to be fictions. It almost seems that if someone wants to give their thoughts some credence, they attribute them to Goethe. The present example is a bit different, though, since it is in German and even uses some eighteenth-century orthography ('Thor') but, tellingly, mixes it with modern forms ('Blüten' rather than 'Blüthen'). I've paged through some of the Friedenthal sections on the Revolution, with no success. It looks like a fake to me.

Dan Wilson

W. Daniel Wilson
Professor of German
Head, School of Modern Languages, Literatures and Cultures
Royal Holloway, University of London
Egham, Surrey
TW20 0EX
Tel. +44 (0)1784 414 668
http://www.rhul.ac.uk/modern-languages/staff/wilson.html



-----Original Message-----
From: JISCmail German Studies List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bell, Matthew
Sent: 03 July 2008 17:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Goethe Search

I suspect Jo's right. I can't find either passage in the CD-ROM version of the Weimarer Ausgabe (which also includes the Gespraeche). The text on revolutions doesn't really sound like Goethe. The phrase 'gegen Revolutionen' just sounds wrong. Compare the following, which uses similar vocab but in a v. different way:
"Weil ich nun aber die Revolutionen haßte, so nannte man mich einen Freund des Bestehenden. Das ist aber ein sehr zweideutiger Titel, den ich mir verbitten möchte. Wenn das Bestehende alles vortrefflich, gut und gerecht wäre, so hätte ich gar nichts dawider; da aber neben vielem Guten zugleich viel Schlechtes, Ungerechtes und Unvollkommenes besteht, so heißt ein Freund des Bestehenden oft nicht viel weniger als ein Freund des Veralteten und Schlechten" (Eckermann 4 January 1824, WA V, v, 12-13).
Matthew

Matthew Bell
Professor of German and Comparative Literature
Editor, Publications of the English Goethe Society (PEGS)

Department of German
King's College
Strand
London WC2R 2LS
+44 (0)207 848 2131

-----Original Message-----
From: JISCmail German Studies List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Alan Ng
Sent: 03 July 2008 17:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Goethe Search

Interesting topic - the possibility of debunking a false attribution
is titillating enough that I pursued this a little further:

Now, using the "maximaler Wortabstand" feature of DigiBib, and
expanding the search to include _all_ 108 authors on the CD-ROM, and
turning on the option "Schreibweisentolerant", and allowing for any
variation of capitalization, we get:

* No relevant (=vaguely similar) occurrences of "Rose" near "Winter"
within 10 words of each other (the only hit was in a Klabund poem,
"Rote Rose, Winter witternd ...")

* No occurrences at all of "unzeitgemäßem" near "Rausch" within 10
words  of each other.

* No relevant occurrences of "Alles" near "seine" and near "Zeit"
with no more 10 words distance from each other. There are 8
occurrences of variations on this adage, none of which occurred in a
context related to nature or flowers or seasons, and also none of
them in Goethe's texts.

* No relevant occurrences of "gegen" near "Revolutionen." The only
hit was in Ludwig Börne, in this sentence: "Das käme mir gar nicht
lächerlicher vor als die bisherige Hülfe, die man gegen Revolutionen
angewendet."

* No occurrences at all of "bewährtes" near "Altes"

* No relevant occurrences of "Neues" near "geschaffen". The two hits
were in Eichendorff and ETA Hoffmann, neither in the context of
revolutions or politics, and neither as part of a contrast vs. the
passing of old things.

There's some data, at least, for what it's worth ...

____________________________________________________________
Alan Ng, PhD .  [log in to unmask]  .  http://www.alan-ng.net/
Madison, Wisconsin, USA


On Jul 3, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Jo Catling wrote:

> My guess is that these are paraphrases, either of poems or half-
> remembered
> quotes?  This happens quite a lot with Rilke, too!
> Jo
>
> Dr J M Catling
> German and Comparative Literature
> School of Literature and Creative Writing
> Faculty of Arts and Humanities
> University of East Anglia
> Norwich
> NR4 7TJ
> GB
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: JISCmail German Studies List
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Alan Ng
>> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 3:38 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Goethe Search
>>
>> According to the "Digitale Bibliothek" digital edition of
>> Goethe's works (in "Deutsche Literatur von Lessing bis
>> Kafka"), neither quote can be found anywhere in Goethe's
>> texts. My edition is dated 2004.
>>
>> I'm curious whether it turns out this edition is faulty, or in
>> fact these are not quotes from Goethe.
>>
>> In fact, this CD-ROM also claims that neither quote can be
>> found anywhere in its texts of 108 authors "von Lessing bis Kafka."
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Alan Ng, PhD .  [log in to unmask]  .
>> http://www.alan-ng.net/ Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2008, at 6:11 PM, CUNY german studies wrote:
>>
>>> In the Fatih Akin film Auf der anderen Seite, the following passages
>>> are attributed to Goethe.
>>>
>>> "Wer wollte schon eine Rose im tiefsten Winter blühen sehen?
>> Alles hat
>>> doch seine Zeit: Blätter, Knospen, Blüten... Nur der Thor verlangt
>>> nach diesem unzeitgemäßen Rausch."
>>>
>>> "Ich bin gegen Revolutionen, denn es geht genauso viel
>> bewährtes Altes
>>> kaputt wie gutes Neues geschaffen wird."
>>>
>>> We'd be grateful for information about the sources from which these
>>> passages are cited.  Title, edition, and page number would be much
>>> appreciated.
>>

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