To strictly moderate the thankless muse??
(that make sense to anybody?)
Love to all
Dave
2008/7/15 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]>:
> I'm glad, at last, to hear from you. It's always helpful, Anny, to know
> what folks are thinking. No doubt you could tell from my explanation in
> calling for Joe's voluntarily giving up his co-managership, that I had no
> clue as to what, if anything, he had decided on his own or with the advice
> of others. Nor did I have any notion of what other listmembers thought of
> the issues raised in the timeline of what I felt were his dictatorial
> actions.
> As always, if there's no voting mechanism in place, and if most of the
> members of a group, as is almost always the case, choose to remain silent,
> none of us can know what most of us want. I find that frustrating, but it
> apparently is the accepted norm.
>
> I feel quite content as a member of this list, recognizing that we are a
> wonderfully diverse group, comprising many strong personalities, and those
> factors inevitably lead to intense encounters. I see the diversity and
> personality-strength as pluses----which should be evident to many of you in
> my attempts to keep members from being cut from our list. It's generally my
> way, and it's not difficult for me to understand and sympathise with those
> who feel the opposite way. But the understanding and sympathy don't stop me
> from voicing my views and opinions, from having laughs, making and
> commenting on poetry, and in general, being myself---with the most profound
> wish that others will be themselves and learn what they can from the mix
> that we are.
>
> That said, I see no particular reason to apologise to anyone, Anny. You
> perhaps feel better, yourself, having stated your reasons for wanting my
> apologies to be given to Fred and to Joe. Your saying it is at least a step
> in the right direction: increasing the openness which this list, in my
> opinion, needs. Openness is a responsibility, not only of the listmanagers,
> but of every member of the group. It's at once a daunting challenge, and a
> fantastic opportunity. Many might feel that it "gets in the way"---as well
> as so many other things that go on with us here---of "poetry". Perhaps they
> are right. But I don't think so.
>
> Judy
>
>
>
> 2008/7/15 Anny Ballardini <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>> As a co-manager I was consulted, and there was a mail ready to be sent to
>> you to apologize to Frederick for your tone. I discard all your points
>> Judy.
>>
>>
>> I can understand you have had problems with your trip to England, and that
>> this list is a way for you to deal with your disappointment, but please
>> understand that there are other members on this list, and that we are
>> trying
>> to do our best to keep it interesting for all.
>>
>> I would like you to apologize to Joseph for what you said. And I am saying
>> this without having consulted with my co-manager.
>>
>> My best,
>> Anny
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Joe, with nothing I say intended to be an attack on you personally, I am
>> > asking for your voluntarily giving up your post as co-manager of this
>> list.
>> > We listmembers are not privy to back channel communications, if any, that
>> > you may have had at any point, so I can only draw conclusions based upon
>> > what you write front channel. In your posts clearly labelled
>> "co-manager",
>> > you have, it seems to me, been dictatorial, have not consulted
>> listmembers
>> > before making your decisions, and have made erratic judgements and
>> > pronouncements. Following is a gathering of those specifics.
>> >
>> > You must consider the timeline of actions and decisions that you have
>> left
>> > us with, regarding your co-managership:
>> >
>> > 1) You resigned your co-managership in the wake of an upset with one of
>> > the
>> > members whom you wished to cut from the list.
>> >
>> > 2) Peter Cudmore volunteered to fill your vacated position.
>> >
>> > 3) You said that you wanted to continue as co-manager, and, without any
>> > front channel request for input or advice from us members, you gathered
>> > together a group of us to advise you on the difficult issue of whether
>> and
>> > how listmembers should be removed from the list.
>> >
>> > 4) Yesterday, you seemed to want a thread discontinued, and that
>> > eventually
>> > became evident from your saying "the thread is over." Yet we saw no
>> > evidence that you had consulted with your co-manager about your decision,
>> > nor that you had sought the advice of your self-selected group of
>> advisors.
>> >
>> > 5) Assuming the best---that, indeed, you had consulted Anny and your
>> group
>> > of advisors---you did not tell us that you had consulted them. You can
>> > understand how autocratic that makes you appear to be.
>> >
>> > 6) Assuming that you did not consult Anny or your advisors, we
>> reasonably
>> > must wonder why you'd make such an undemocratic move, to the detriment of
>> > the list's stated desire for equality and fairness.
>> >
>> > I suggest your leaving the post, with all my due respect for your hard
>> work
>> > and your tryings. None of us regards the position as "easy", and few, if
>> > any of us, want to have it. But I think that your remaining in the
>> > position
>> > is divisive, in itself. Surely, that is not a good thing for this list.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Judy
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2008/7/14 Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]>:
>> >
>> > > My understanding, Candice, is that the list is unmoderated in that all
>> > the
>> > > mail goes through. Nobody checks it ahead of time. If you send it it
>> will
>> > > show up. (The software can be set to hold messages for approval.) But
>> the
>> > > list has both two "managers" & an advisory panel, presumably because
>> > things
>> > > occasionally need to be adjudicated. The managers and the advisory
>> panel
>> > > work for the best interests of the list as a whole. No messages were
>> > > deleted
>> > > this morning (US time) & I would consider such an action appropriate in
>> > > only
>> > > the most extreme case. Hope this clarifies matters.
>> > >
>> > > Joseph Duemer
>> > > Co-Mgr.
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 9:21 PM, MC Ward <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Joe,
>> > > >
>> > > > The last I knew was that Jiscmail designated poetryetc an unmoderated
>> > > list,
>> > > > and I think our welcome message says so too. Has something changed in
>> > the
>> > > > meantime?
>> > > >
>> > > > Candice
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Joseph Duemer
>> > > Professor of Humanities
>> > > Clarkson University
>> > > Weblog: sharpsand.net
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>>
>
--
David Bircumshaw
Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
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