Hi Morgan

annotated below prefixed with **

thanks
Dave E


---------- Original Message -----------
From: Morgan Leigh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:52:51 +1000
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] PhD Thesis Idea - request for input

> Greetings,
> Thanks for your many excellent suggestions.
> 
>  > a fabulous potential exercise in comparing the diaries- however I 
> fear > you may find that you stray from your initial focus
> 
> Isn't this inevitable in any PhD? ;)
** oh yes, but this may take you 'over the hills and far away' !
> 
>  >AC's diaries over a longer period might give an
>  > insight into the repeat-measures element of his procedure though
> 
>  From the brief excerpts I have seen so far of Hirsig's diaries I 
> know what you mean. I'll have to wait and see what the full text 
> reveals. More data is better though. Those very daily mundanities 
> though will shed light on the stuff that was going on that AC 
> doesn't mention but that will have an effect on the magic. Starving 
> people have altered states without doing anything else. 
** indeed, and that is an area where you could draw on research into that 
from psychology
> Repeatability is certainly one important factor in that which I 
> think of as scientific. Mind you, I think that such things as 
> whether or not the experimenter believes that the experiment will 
> work, or will have a particular outcome, will affect the repeatability.
> 
>  > The Witchcraft Museum do indeed have a copy of Leah's diaries in their
>  > library, however for a time (maybe still now) they were also to 
> be found > online- which if still the case will make your life 
> easier, as > Queensland to Cornwall is a very long trek (however 
> much fun that would > be). I seem to recall they also appeared in an 
> edition of Chaos > International, or at least a segment of them, 
> some years back
> 
> Don't tell me things like this! Now I will have to include this info 
> when applying for research travel funding. Spoil sport :)
** ok, i will pretend i never said that if you will too, if you can find a 
reason for me to travel to Oz for research : ) 
> 
>  > On the intersection between magic, science and religion I must recommend
>  > you read SSOTBME by Ramsey Dukes (aka Lionel Snell) for a superb occult
>  > practitioner's view of the subject.
> 
> This is, I think, a very important issue. Persons who pontificate on 
> whether or not things are science or religion/magic are usually 
> firmly in one of these camps or another. Usually the scientific camp,
>  and those are the ones who tend to argue that intent/belief can 
> have an effect on the outcome. Not optimal.

** Lionel is a rare creature, someone with the ability to see several 
philosophial perspectives, and his SSOTBME extols the virtue of being able to 
slip into any one of four perspectives at will, and as required by the needs 
of the task in hand- he has also written on the magical aspects of virtual 
reality and the value of personifying inanimate objects as demons, so to be 
better able to work with them, for example : ) 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Morgan Leigh
> 
> D E wrote:
> > hi Leigh (and thankyou for the comp!)
> > 
> > a fabulous potential exercise in comparing the diaries- however I fear 
> > you may find that you stray from your initial focus once you get to sit 
> > down and compare a date-by-date version for each writer, on a few of 
> > those days I compared in each diary (the full comparison exercise being 
> > something I have wanted to do for years- see that green glow on the 
> > horizon? that's good-natured envy !)  I found that Leah was writing 
> > mundane, sometimes desperate material about their general life 
> > circumstances at Cefalu- when they were often on the verge of starvation 
> > and the children were ill- and AC was pontificating on higher things.... 
> > so they **might** not be material that can be employed in answering your 
> > research question.... AC's diaries over a longer period might give an 
> > insight into the repeat-measures element of his procedure though
> > 
> > The Witchcraft Museum do indeed have a copy of Leah's diaries in their 
> > library, however for a time (maybe still now) they were also to be found 
> > online- which if still the case will make your life easier, as 
> > Queensland to Cornwall is a very long trek (however much fun that would 
> > be). I seem to recall they also appeared in an edition of Chaos 
> > International, or at least a segment of them, some years back
> > 
> > On the intersection between magic, science and religion I must recommend 
> > you read SSOTBME by Ramsey Dukes (aka Lionel Snell) for a superb occult 
> > practitioner's view of the subject (he also deals with art as another 
> > perspective on the world); details here: 
> > http://occultebooks.com/Default.aspx?tabid=152  and scroll down a bit 
> > for review texts-  some of those reviews mention an e-book version which 
> > may not be available right now, but it is still in print as a physical 
> > book... If you read and enjoy the book I will be able to put you in 
> > touch with Lionel, who is very happy to exchange correspondence with 
> > interested people discussing his ideas on magick
> > 
> > a short overview of some of the ideas in SSOTBME also appeared in a past 
> > JSM, issue 2 or 3 I think (not got them immediately to hand so cannot be 
> > sure) entitled Four Glasses of Water
> > 
> > There is also some valuable material on magic versus science in Alex 
> > Owen's recent-ish book 
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Place-Enchantment-British-Occultism-
Culture/dp/0226642011 
> > that is an amazon link in the uk, obviously not of use to you in Oz, but 
> > just to give you the title.
> > 
> > Egil Asprem's paper here http://www.cesnur.org/2008/london_asprem.doc 
> > will also be of interest
> > 
> > great project, I really like the sound of it!
> > 
> > cheers
> > Dave E
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Morgan Leigh" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:03 AM
> > Subject: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] PhD Thesis Idea - request for input
> > 
> > 
> >> Greetings all,
> >> I have just started a PhD at the University of Queensland, in the 
> >> school of History, Philosophy, Religion and Classics. Having done a 
> >> bit of reading, I am now at the stage of actually, exactly nailing 
> >> down a precise thesis idea. Being as I am very interested in the 
> >> intersection of science and religion, particularly the position that 
> >> magic holds in relation to these two categories, I am thinking of 
> >> doing an analysis of the diaries of Aleister Crowley and Leah Hirsig, 
> >> for such period as the diaries of these two overlap, and considering 
> >> if they support the contention that magic is science. IMHO magic is a 
> >> technology. Moreover the process of learning magic is a scientific 
> >> process, especially when a magical diary is used, to exactly what 
> >> degree being the question. I would be most obliged for any input 
> >> whatsoever any of you wise souls might have regarding my humble yet 
> >> superlative idea, especially vis a vis interesting things to read, 
> >> similar things that have been done before, ideas about where to see 
> >> copies of Hirsig's diaries (I know about the copy in the witchcraft 
> >> museum - Thank you Dave Evans for writing Aleister Crowley and the 
> >> 20th Century Synthesis of Magick).
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Morgan Leigh
------- End of Original Message -------