ditto
a hugely important and fascinating book of occult philosophy by a modern
practitioner
i am admittedly biased as i know the guy, but i know him through having been
a fan well before that : )
dave e
---------- Original Message -----------
From: David Green <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:36:15 +0100
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] PhD Thesis Idea - request for input
> Just to say that SSOTBME should be compulsory reading full stop xx
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of kaostar
> Sent: 12 May 2008 12:23
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] PhD Thesis Idea - request for input
>
> Hi Morgan
>
> annotated below prefixed with **
>
> thanks
> Dave E
>
> ---------- Original Message -----------
> From: Morgan Leigh <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:52:51 +1000
> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] PhD Thesis Idea - request for input
>
> > Greetings,
> > Thanks for your many excellent suggestions.
> >
> > > a fabulous potential exercise in comparing the diaries- however I
> > fear > you may find that you stray from your initial focus
> >
> > Isn't this inevitable in any PhD? ;)
> ** oh yes, but this may take you 'over the hills and far away' !
> >
> > >AC's diaries over a longer period might give an
> > > insight into the repeat-measures element of his procedure though
> >
> > From the brief excerpts I have seen so far of Hirsig's diaries I
> > know what you mean. I'll have to wait and see what the full text
> > reveals. More data is better though. Those very daily mundanities
> > though will shed light on the stuff that was going on that AC
> > doesn't mention but that will have an effect on the magic. Starving
> > people have altered states without doing anything else.
> ** indeed, and that is an area where you could draw on research into
> that
> from psychology
> > Repeatability is certainly one important factor in that which I
> > think of as scientific. Mind you, I think that such things as
> > whether or not the experimenter believes that the experiment will
> > work, or will have a particular outcome, will affect the
> repeatability.
> >
> > > The Witchcraft Museum do indeed have a copy of Leah's diaries in
> > their > library, however for a time (maybe still now) they were also
> > to be found > online- which if still the case will make your life
> > easier, as > Queensland to Cornwall is a very long trek (however much
> > fun that would > be). I seem to recall they also appeared in an
> > edition of Chaos > International, or at least a segment of them, some
> > years back
> >
> > Don't tell me things like this! Now I will have to include this info
> > when applying for research travel funding. Spoil sport :)
> ** ok, i will pretend i never said that if you will too, if you can find
> a
> reason for me to travel to Oz for research : )
> >
> > > On the intersection between magic, science and religion I must
> > recommend > you read SSOTBME by Ramsey Dukes (aka Lionel Snell) for a
>
> > superb occult > practitioner's view of the subject.
> >
> > This is, I think, a very important issue. Persons who pontificate on
> > whether or not things are science or religion/magic are usually
> > firmly in one of these camps or another. Usually the scientific camp,
> > and those are the ones who tend to argue that intent/belief can
> > have an effect on the outcome. Not optimal.
>
> ** Lionel is a rare creature, someone with the ability to see
> several philosophial perspectives, and his SSOTBME extols the virtue
> of being able to slip into any one of four perspectives at will, and
> as required by the needs of the task in hand- he has also written on
> the magical aspects of virtual reality and the value of personifying
> inanimate objects as demons, so to be better able to work with them,
> for example : )
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Morgan Leigh
> >
> > D E wrote:
> > > hi Leigh (and thankyou for the comp!)
> > >
> > > a fabulous potential exercise in comparing the diaries- however I
> > > fear
> > > you may find that you stray from your initial focus once you get to
> sit
> > > down and compare a date-by-date version for each writer, on a few of
>
> > > those days I compared in each diary (the full comparison exercise
> being
> > > something I have wanted to do for years- see that green glow on the
> > > horizon? that's good-natured envy !) I found that Leah was writing
> > > mundane, sometimes desperate material about their general life
> > > circumstances at Cefalu- when they were often on the verge of
> starvation
> > > and the children were ill- and AC was pontificating on higher
> things....
> > > so they **might** not be material that can be employed in answering
> your
> > > research question.... AC's diaries over a longer period might give
> an
> > > insight into the repeat-measures element of his procedure though
> > >
> > > The Witchcraft Museum do indeed have a copy of Leah's diaries in
> > > their
> > > library, however for a time (maybe still now) they were also to be
> found
> > > online- which if still the case will make your life easier, as
> > > Queensland to Cornwall is a very long trek (however much fun that
> would
> > > be). I seem to recall they also appeared in an edition of Chaos
> > > International, or at least a segment of them, some years back
> > >
> > > On the intersection between magic, science and religion I must
> > > recommend
> > > you read SSOTBME by Ramsey Dukes (aka Lionel Snell) for a superb
> occult
> > > practitioner's view of the subject (he also deals with art as
> another
> > > perspective on the world); details here:
> > > http://occultebooks.com/Default.aspx?tabid=152 and scroll down a
> bit
> > > for review texts- some of those reviews mention an e-book version
> which
> > > may not be available right now, but it is still in print as a
> physical
> > > book... If you read and enjoy the book I will be able to put you in
> > > touch with Lionel, who is very happy to exchange correspondence with
>
> > > interested people discussing his ideas on magick
> > >
> > > a short overview of some of the ideas in SSOTBME also appeared in a
> > > past
> > > JSM, issue 2 or 3 I think (not got them immediately to hand so
> cannot be
> > > sure) entitled Four Glasses of Water
> > >
> > > There is also some valuable material on magic versus science in Alex
> > > Owen's recent-ish book
> > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Place-Enchantment-British-Occultism-
> Culture/dp/0226642011
> > > that is an amazon link in the uk, obviously not of use to you in Oz,
>
> > > but
> > > just to give you the title.
> > >
> > > Egil Asprem's paper here
> > > http://www.cesnur.org/2008/london_asprem.doc
> > > will also be of interest
> > >
> > > great project, I really like the sound of it!
> > >
> > > cheers
> > > Dave E
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Morgan Leigh"
> > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:03 AM
> > > Subject: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] PhD Thesis Idea - request for input
> > >
> > >
> > >> Greetings all,
> > >> I have just started a PhD at the University of Queensland, in the
> > >> school of History, Philosophy, Religion and Classics. Having done a
>
> > >> bit of reading, I am now at the stage of actually, exactly nailing
> > >> down a precise thesis idea. Being as I am very interested in the
> > >> intersection of science and religion, particularly the position
> that
> > >> magic holds in relation to these two categories, I am thinking of
> > >> doing an analysis of the diaries of Aleister Crowley and Leah
> Hirsig,
> > >> for such period as the diaries of these two overlap, and
> considering
> > >> if they support the contention that magic is science. IMHO magic is
> a
> > >> technology. Moreover the process of learning magic is a scientific
> > >> process, especially when a magical diary is used, to exactly what
> > >> degree being the question. I would be most obliged for any input
> > >> whatsoever any of you wise souls might have regarding my humble yet
>
> > >> superlative idea, especially vis a vis interesting things to read,
> > >> similar things that have been done before, ideas about where to see
>
> > >> copies of Hirsig's diaries (I know about the copy in the witchcraft
>
> > >> museum - Thank you Dave Evans for writing Aleister Crowley and the
> > >> 20th Century Synthesis of Magick).
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >>
> > >> Morgan Leigh
> ------- End of Original Message -------
>
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