My reply to Jon Quitslund may have gone out without a
name attached I suddenly realised-it was from Gillian
Hubbard (I had that kiwi accent).
--- [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
>
> This has been an interesting thread, and bringing
> Guyon into the picture raises a number of questions.
> I have been looking into Guyon's encounter with
> Mammon and pondering the significance of his
> unconscious state. Does the question of "election"
> come into play in II viii? It depends on how you
> construe the similarities and differences between
> Redcrosse and Guyon. How are their two races
> "like," and how unlike? As I typed that question, I
> heard the possible pun for the first time: "race"
> refers to the narrative lines of Books I and II
> (aligned with the Sun and the Moon if you follow
> Alastair Fowler's reading of "like race to run" and
> imagery and incidents throughout the Books), and
> doesn't "race" also allude to the differences
> between human heroes and faeries?
>
>
> Guyon's angel is not entirely (or not at all
> specifically) a Christian guardian angel. In viii
> 8, he turns responsibility for Guyon's protection
> from the "euill" that is near at hand over to the
> Palmer, saying "Yet will I not forgoe, ne yet
> forgett / The care thereof my selfe vnto the end, /
> But euermore him succour, and defend / Against his
> foe and mine." What does "euermore" mean here? And
> "vnto the end"? In his Three Books on Life, Ficino
> has a good deal to say about "supernal" guardians
> such as this angel, and I take it that their concern
> is focused upon the good health, worldly success,
> happiness, and long lives of the individuals in
> their care. I don't for a minute subscribe to a
> reading of Book II that renders it entirely secular
> in its content; Biblical allusions and Christian
> content will be found in many places. I haven't
> found a way to fit the Christian and the classical
> frames of reference together: maybe they aren't
> supposed to fit.
>
>
> The Palmer's reactions to Guyon's angel are
> instructive: first he is captivated by the "wondrous
> beauty" of this "faire young man," then he is
> rendered speechless "Through fear and wonder," then,
> "his slow eies beguiled of their sight, / [he] Woxe
> sore affraid." By the end of the canto, when Guyon
> comes out of his trance, he describes Prince
> Arthur's exploits and says nothing at all about the
> angel. Terry Krier has some fine things to say
> about the angel (compared to Belphoebe, who also
> enters Book II and remains unknown to Guyon) in
> Gazing on Secret Sights.
>
>
> Cheers, Jon Quitslund -------------- Original
> message from Kathryn Walls
> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
>
>
> > The fact that, in II.viii, Guyon is unconscious of
> the angel, supports
> > Paul Suttie's point. The angel's visitation shows
> that he is one of the
> > elect, but his unconsciousness of it shows that he
> has not yet
> > experienced conversion. Cf. Hugh MacLachlan's
> article, "The Death of
> > Guyon" in Spenser Studies 1983.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of Paul Suttie
> > Sent: Saturday, 5 April 2008 10:56 p.m.
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Redcrosse's call
> >
> > I agree that these are very important questions
> for the interpretation
> > of
> > Book One, but I think (especially given the
> dominant position of
> > Calvinism
> > in Elizabethan salvation theology) that we need to
> distinguish carefully
> >
> > between RC's election and his conversion. All
> those who are to be saved
> > in
> > the end are elect from the beginning; but the
> elect live as sinners
> > until
> > they experience conversion and the start of the
> process of regeneration.
> > So
> > it wouldn't make sense to suggest that RC becomes
> one of the elect at
> > any
> > point in the story other than 'before the
> beginning', but it is a
> > salient
> > question to ask when in his story he experiences
> conversion and begins
> > to
> > live as one of the faithful. I have a chapter on
> this in my book
> > "Self-Interpretation in The Faerie Queene"
> (Boydell and Brewer, 2006) in
> >
> > which I discuss Gless's interpretation and others.
> In a nutshell, I
> > think
> > that the different possible moments of conversion
> identified by Gless
> > are
> > not due to vagueness on Spenser's part or a desire
> to let the reader
> > decide
> > but are a very specific representation of the
> different models of
> > salvation
> > offered by Roman Catholic and Protestant theology,
> and that the former
> > is
> > represented as a false version of Christianity,
> the latter as the truth.
> > In
> > more concrete terms, Redcross complacently regards
> himself from the
> > beginning of the story as one of the faithful, but
> doesn't experience
> > true
> > (=Protestant) conversion until he comes to the
> gates of despair in canto
> > 9,
> > where he is made to see the vanity of his own
> works and that the one and
> >
> > only thing that can truly save him is the fact of
> having been chosen for
> >
> > salvation by God ("Why shouldst thou then despair,
> that chosen art?").
> > The
> > moment of conversion consists in receiving a true
> and lively faith in
> > God's
> > having elected him for salvation from the
> beginning. Up till that point,
> >
> > all his supposed 'faith' is actually mere
> self-righteousness, the most
> > dangerous form of spiritual pride.
> >
> > Paul Suttie
> >
> >
> > On Apr 4 2008, Reid Robert L. wrote:
> >
> > >Darryl Gless suggests locating "the all-important
> divine call before
> > the
> > >beginning of RCK's quest, or at the moment when
> Arthur rescues him from
> > >Orgoglio's prison, or at the end of canto ix when
> he seems consciously
> > >to accept the doctrine of predestined election"
> (Interpretation &
> > >Theology in Sp. 145). Gless's reference to
> "Readers who accept the
> > >knight's armor as prima facie evidence of his
> prior election and
> > >calling" (55) recalls Padelford's comment on the
> tall clownish young
> > man
> > >who, "when clad in the armor of a Christian man,
> 'seemed the goodliest
> > >man in al that company,' so recreated was he by
> the grace of God." When
> > >does RC receive his call?Abandoning Una (& thus
> his faith, however
> > >"immature or untried") assumes an earlier call.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Jim Broaddus' questioning the precise timing of
> the "call" seems
> > >important, and Darryl Gless's nice list of
> options recalls other
> > >repetitious features of the moral/religious
> allegory (why do
> > allegorical
> > >figures of "pride" reappear so persistently, yet
> in such intriguingly
> > >varied forms?). The question of when the clownish
> hero was "called"
> > >might be connected with the Reformation's
> much-debated question of when
> > >to be "baptized" (before, or during, the
> conscious
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