medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
> Christopher Crockett wrote:
>> Henricus frater illustris Ludovici, Dei gratia Francorum regis et
ducis Aquitanorum, et Dei permissione abbas regalium abbatiarum...
>> http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires/sspire/page40/ -
>> http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires/sspire/page41/
[unfortunately, that "enc" (Ecole des chartes) site is not always available,
for some reason. except for _en principe_ availability, of course].
>> [and, get This, John, in the same charter he refers to St. Victor's as
"ecclesiam Beati Victoris regularium canonicorum abbatiam fecit (by
Louis VI)..."]
> I don't see the problem there - St Victor *was* an Abbey.
butbut, i thought that *all* collegial churches were, well, "churches"
--someone told me that to refer to them as "abbeys" was incorrect.
i'm sure i heard that, somewhere, quite recently.
>[The Victorine order had abbeys,
according to Du Cange, Niermeyer and the OED, any institution which had an
abbot was an _abbatiam_, i.e., "abbey".
>the Augustinians had priories.]
in England, perhaps.
"Augustinians" is a somewhat vague and (at the least) anachronistic term to
apply to French collegials in the 12th c.
e.g., St. John's of Chartres, reformed in the 1090s by Bishop Ivo certainly
had an abbot.
Ivo's sucessor, Bishop Godfrey, refers to the canons living a regular life
according to "the canons instituted by St. Augustine" (#19 below)--
though i've yet to see any source which refers to it as an _abbatia_,. it most
definitely was *never* referred to as a "priory"
ditto, i assume, for the charters of, say St. Quentin of Beauvais.
of course, St. John's did have "priories," i.e., small establishments out on
their country estates, consisting of a few canons, under one who may (or may
not) have been styled (in c. 12) _prior_.
from the Cartulary of St. John's:
#5 1102 (Pascal II) ...Alberto abbati canonice Sancti Johannis Baptiste in
Carnoti surburbio site eccelsie, ejusdemque fratribus regulariter
victuris....
B.J. Ecclesia....
#6 1107 (Pascal II) ... Alberto, abbati, ejus fratribus in ecclesia Sancti
Johannis Valieiacensis juxta Carnotum regtularem vitam professis...
#7 c. 1108 (Vdsse Helissendis) ... fratres in aecclesia Beate Johannis de
Valeia....canonici Sancti Johannis...
#8 c. 1108 ...aecclesiae Sti Johannis de Valeia...
#9 c. 1108 (Vdmse Helissendis) ...ecclesiam Sti Johannis que in surburio
Carnoti sita...
#10 c. 1110 ...canonici Sti Johannis de Valeia regulares ecclesiam...
#11 c. 1110 (Ivo) ...ecclesiam Sti Johannis....ecclesie Sti Johannis...
#12 1110-1115 (Ivo) ...aeclessiae Sti Johannis de Valeia....
#13 1111 (Louis VI) ...Beato Johani de Valeia et conventui fratrum....
#14 c. 1113 (Hugh of Le Puiset) ...Sancti Johanni canonici...
#15 1115 (Ivo) ...ecclesiam fratribus de Sancto Johanne **regulariter
viventibus**...
#17 c. 1115 ...Sti Johannis ecclesiam...
#18 1116-9 (Conan, legate) ...ecclesie Sti Johannis de Valeia...
#19 1119 (Bishop Godfrey) ...Beati Johannis ecclesiae Valiacensi, qui
proprietate posthabita ***canonicam habent vitam juxta beati Augustini
institutionem***...
>> in any event, St. Mary of Etampes was one of those royal abbeys Henry
was abbot of, in addition to St. Spire of Corbeil, St. Mary of Poissy, St.
Mary of Mantes, St. Denis-la-Châtre (near Paris), St. Melon of Pontoise, St.
Martin of Champeaux, etc. (the guy was, clearly, On a Roll.)
> Those all seem to have been collegiate churches
well, technically, those were, in 1145 --just to use the words of their Abbot,
Henry, and his older brother, Louis VII-- "royal abbeys."
>- with the possible exception of Saint-Spire at Corbeil.
no, St. Spire was definitely a collegial --called an "abbey" in 1145 by Louis
VII and his kid brother, Abbot Henry.
>> again:
>> i fail to see how we can't get around calling them "abbeys," since both he
and Louis VII did.
>> how would *you* [or anyone else, *please*] translate "abbatiarum" in these
texts??
>> unless i hear from someone with a reasonable alternative, i'll assume
that "abbeys" is the correct translation, no matter how inconvenient that word
might be when applied to what are usually called "collegial/collegiate
churches."
> The problem is not that they are usually called collegiate churches
yes, that seems to be a persistent problem which *you* have, John.
>- it is that they were.
except when they were *not*.
since their Abbot, Henry, and his brother, King Louis VII saw fit to style
them "abbeys" in 1145 i see no reason whatever justifying not calling them
that --at least when speaking within the context of Henry's abbacy.
>> i mean the Royal Abbey that Henry was Abbot of in Etampes, viz., St.
Mary of Etampes, founded by King Robert I in (if i remember rightly) the
1020s.
> If you mean Notre-Dame,
no, i mean St. Mary of Etampes.
to my knowledge, there is *no* pre-1200 (or even post-1200, medieval) document
which speaks of this institution as "Notre-Dame" (in Latin or Old French)
--that name is, at best, late middlevil, and certainly only became popular in
early modren times.
ditto, for all other institutions under the vocation of Mary, Mother of God.
ditto for such places as the Benedictine house of St. Peter's of Chartres
--popularly called, since early modren times "Saint-Pe`re", but *consistently
styled "Saint Peter of Chartres" in the documents.
>as far as I can tell, it was a Collegiate Church,
yes, except for in 1145, when it was called a "Royal abbey", by its Abbot and
his brother, the King.
> founded by Robert (II) the Pious.
correct.
Robert 2
i was in error.
mea grosso culpa.
>> the Benedictine house of Morigny, founded by monks brought from St.
Germer-de-Fly shortly after 1100, was a league or so outside the
walls of the town and cannot be considered to be "in Etampes" by any
accurate use of the English preposition "in" that i am aware of.
> The preposition was "at".
it was.
a Distinction without a Difference.
Morigny ain't "at" Etampes, either.
it's "at" ...Morigny.
though "near Etampes", might work, i suppose.
c
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