I agree with what Mark is saying here, as much as I agree with what Jesse
underlined. But in order to prove my point I need the quotation by Spicer
that Stephen Vincent has on his blog, and if I am not wrong it recently
appeared also on the Buffalo, the one with the lemon, that I found several
days ago, but could not find any more,
thanks to those who can forward the link.
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:34 PM, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I think the problem is trying to sound "Japanese," which means
> indulging in an imagined simplicity. The English of my one renga is
> profoundly referential to my own language and culture. Most words and
> phrases contain their histories, a nexus of meanings and suggestions
> of words unrelated except by sound. I don't see how that's a lower
> potential order of reference than kanji, tho of course it operates
> somewhat differently.
>
> Beyond that, I think, Jesse, you may be talking about the problem
> that confronts all translation, both linguistic and temporal. What
> doesn't get said is what everyone knows. So, Shakespeare's imagined
> Venice, or for that matter his London, can only be experienced by
> reconstruction, and it never gets closer than arms length. Or in the
> present. A bunch of my poems are being translated into Spanish. I
> chose poems that were in the main translateable, no easy task in
> itself, but I'm aware of how much will necessarily be lost from those
> that remain. When I describe walking on a Brooklyn street with
> Carlos, for instance, I'm sending a wealth of unstated information to
> my primary readers, as surely as a Japanese poet is when he mentions
> a falling blossom. Another example. In a poem called American
> Language I say I'm driving across the high prairie. I don't have to
> tell Americans that I'm not just talking geology. There is no way to
> say it in Spanish. Llanura elevada is geology and no more--lost is
> the metaphysical space of the Westerns and the whole history of
> bloodshed. Another example. I begin a poem "The farmer's daughter..."
> There's no other reference to the traditional jokes, but I expect
> readers to get it without thinking. Untranslateable.
>
> Is there something else I'm not getting?
>
> Mark
>
> At 01:22 PM 3/31/2008, you wrote:
> >Point taken, Jesse, but, but...?
> >
> >I suspect you're absolutely right about haiku, but I think one can
> >point to some tries at haibun, englished as process, for example, that
> >work very well in english (even if losing a lot of what the 'original'
> >Japanese form comprehends).
> >
> >But then I read them as english poems, so perhaps I just dont see how
> >badly they fail, in terms of the form theyre patterning themselves
> >on....
> >
> >Still, thinking of even the few poets I know who have tried something
> >along those lines, like Sheila Murphy or John Tranter, for example,
> >I'm glad to have them....
> >
> >Doug
> >On 30-Mar-08, at 7:53 PM, [log in to unmask] wrote:
> >
> >>Sad to say but English language poetry written to emulate Japanese
> >>forms
> >>tends to sound chopped, truncated, minced into what I call "Zenglish."
> >>After studying the "stuff" in the original language I'm not happy to
> >>read most of the the so-called equivalent writing in English.
> >>
> >>Of course it's possible to write short, short poetry in English. A
> >>few
> >>of Herrick are about as close as English can come to what kana and
> >>Kanji
> >>can do so effortlessly. Sanuel Menashe has also done it once or
> >>twice.
> >>
> >>Most of the other stuff is, well--"stuff."
> >>
> >>Sad that we have the feeling that languages as different as Japanese
> >>and
> >>English work in the same way to produce equivalent effects. They
> >>don't. That's why I believe that English language haiku is a
> >>misnomer. Add to this the sense of ease and entitlement that allows
> >>us
> >>to misunderstand haiku (so easy that kids can enjoy writing it!), the
> >>cultural hang-over of post WWII Japan when the West was flooded with
> >>cheaply made goods from the islands, etc. etc., instant ramen noodles
> >>etc. etc., and we have a real
> >>problem with coming to grips with what is indeed a dazzling mode of
> >>expression in the original. Our cultural, Anglo-centric chauvanism
> >>keeps getting in the way.
> >>
> >>Of course we could probably substitute French, German, Spanish, for
> >>English in the above statement and still come pretty close to the
> >>truth.
> >>
> >>I was first introduced to the idea of "difficulty" and haiku writing
> >>when I arrived in Japan and began to talk with the Japanese about
> >>poetry. But wasn't haiku so simple that grade school teachers in
> >>America could coax tons of it from their charges? Hadn't I written my
> >>share of it when I was a child? Didn't every English "teacher" who
> >>found his or her way to Japan suddently breaking out in the stuff like
> >>rashes from too much msg in meals? You could see their Zenglish in
> >>the
> >>haiku column of the Mainichi Simbun with someone saying which was good
> >>and which was bad!
> >>
> >>When I started to study the language (and I must say even now I'm far
> >>from mastering it)--and sat with significat haijin who wrote,
> >>published,
> >>and won awards for their work in Japanese--only then did I understand
> >>what the Japanese were telling me. Haiku is hard as hell to write.
> >>Moreover, the use of Kanji makes the thought so compressed that
> >>finding
> >>an equivalent in English in the melding of form and content to even
> >>begin to give the feeling of the original is well-neigh impossible.
> >>The
> >>sense of "ease" and "anything I say is haiku is haiku" that so many
> >>seem to find in the act of writing this form is simply an illusion
> >>born
> >>of a misunderstanding--linguistic and cultural.
> >>
> >>Stuff indeed.
> >>
> >>Jess
> >
> >Douglas Barbour
> >[log in to unmask]
> >
> >http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/ <http://www.ualberta.ca/%7Edbarbour/>
> >
> >Latest books:
> >Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
> >http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
> >Wednesdays'
> >
> http://abovegroundpress.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-from-aboveground-press_10.html
> >
> >to rid me of
> >the ugh in
> >thought
> >i spell anew
> >weave the world
> >out of the or
> >binary
> >
> > bpNichol
>
--
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
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