Agree there Damian - about different value systems, tensions arising
from this, and as a result arise different systems of snobbery out of
self defence perhaps?
Myself - I went from a conceptual approach for A level Art in Germany
(where I was told if I wanted to learn to draw I should attend an adult
education class), to a very traditional apprenticeship in glass
painting (where I learned to draw naturalistically) to post-Foundation
British Art school experimental drawing approaches (wicked, if
disturbing to me at the time, but out of hindsight brilliant - still
use some of the stuff now myself), where I was told I need to let go of
my A-level drawing..... Little did my gifted English tutors know that
my A level drawing was pretty conceptual, but this is perhaps
irrelevant. I guess what they must have referred to was the sort of
experience people get in A level art on these islands (writing from
Belfast). Still - out of hindsight there were things worth keeping from
my timid observational and very delicate work - it should not have been
dismissed like it was during my BA. Somehow during my MA it was
possible to reconcile some of those tensions, and there was more
tolerance for the lateral breadth of skills/ concepts in their polarity
and interaction.
The tensions you refer to have been acted out in my own persona,
leaving all sorts of fissures and seismographic cracks in my creative
outlook - perhaps the more interesting for it. I "draw" the conclusion
from it now, as I survived relatively intact - creativity confidence
glued together after having been smashed up a few times - that it might
not be necessary to have a polarised approach to this. Some people are
more process-orientated than others, some are really good concept
thinkers, and the making of the art piece may not have to be the job
for that type of artist - but for others the making is the main point.
There is everything in between those extreme types : Conceptualist
versus Craft/Process person. Duchamp could stand in for someone who
bridged those tensions in his own oeuvre and approach to art. I always
liked his short essay : the Creative Act. There is another way of
looking at the polarised situation: creativity should allow for free
experimentation, like in the sciences - and process experimentation is
a way of approaching creative thinking from a very different vantage
point to that of someone who puts concepts first - perhaps needing to
verbalise or diagrammatically explore solutions to questions
beforehand. Different learner types might come into this ( I think
we've been there before in one of these debates).
As to the poetry or non-sense and no-sensibility approach of some of
the other list members whose first language is not English ( I have to
include myself here as English is my second language as well), I would
think it's forgive-able to get a few emails which seem besides the core
purposes of this list. If I were to list all the emails Sylvia sent I
was positively grateful for, they would for sure outweigh the ones
which irritated me. For example the brilliant website on Haeckel - I
find these mails helpful as I can add the websites to my drawing
webliographies for students to look at.
If a bit of anger has provoked a good debate than that is something
worthwhile. Hope though it has not intimidated other list members
though . Look forward to receiving the kinds of mails Tom and Sylvia
send out - as I like their different approaches (mostly...and if they
irritate me I just throw the mail in the bin - easy).
doris
On 4 Mar 2008, at 10:06, Damian Fennell wrote:
> It seems to me that these tensions in the forum reflect general
> tensions in the wider art community between those who gravitate
> towards contemporary approaches to art and those who don't, and the
> way I see it is that these different inclinations are due to different
> value systems.
>
> People who value a broad interpretation and experimental/exploratory
> attitude are likely to at least give the idea of giant balls of paper
> (to take one example) the benefit of the doubt and question its
> significance, while those who principally value so-called
> 'traditional' skill sets and/or representational imagery may reject
> the balls of paper before hearing any justification for their
> existence.
>
> I'm painting a black and white picture where in reality there are many
> shades of grey, but I am convinced the division is there. My own
> belief is that there is a place - a need even? - for a fusion of these
> polarised value systems. A marriage of old and new. Traditional
> mastery of skills and contemporary breadth of skill application.
> Traditional ethics and modern/contemporary iconoclasm and
> taboo-dismantling. Faith and skepticism.
>
> This isn't my own idea, I think it's in the atmosphere already. But I
> thought it might be good to stick my neck above the parapet and
> hopefully elicit a debate about values and how they translate into
> drawing, and judgments of drawing.
>
> And ideally, as others have pointed out, to get personal responses
> from members as much as challenges of definition and meaning (though
> this has its importance too).
>
> all the best
>
> Damian Fennell.
>
>
> On 4 Mar 2008, at 08:24, Rachel wrote:
>
>> Ola Anna, yes that would be a good discussion, but I think this will
>> end up just the same as the discussion as to what constitutes good
>> and bad drawing.
>> Drawing is a word which has come to mean anything; from spurting
>> semen on to paper and covering it (them?) with graphite to giant
>> balls of paper. Therefore the idea that anyone would stick their neck
>> out to make any judgement on anything is pretty remote.
>> Perhaps one problem is that in English ‘draw’ can mean so many
>> things that have absolutely nothing to do with making marks. As soon
>> as one tries to pin down whether drawing is good or bad the
>> discussion spirals off into what exactly is a drawing, then what good
>> is and what bad is. It is not like comparing apples with oranges,
>> which are both fruit. How to compare a video of someone with pencils
>> stuck all over their body flopping round an empty space with a
>> Rembrandt or a Hockney?
>> Rachel
>> On 3/3/08 23:27, "ana leonor rodrigues"
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> What happened to this list?
>>> Well, I understand that an open forum may have situations like
>>> this, but I cannot but agree with Tom.
>>>
>>> My main interest in the list is to talk about drawing, in any way.
>>> But between the strangeness/poetical mails of Sylvia, and the
>>> agressivity of other writers ...
>>>
>>> The problem being, that English is for me, as for many others, a
>>> foreign language, some of the subtleties are sometimes lost,
>>> sometimes misunderstood. I have to accept it as the lingua franca,
>>> but this last times the list has become too puzzling in a non
>>> interesting way.
>>>
>>> Or maybe this attack of reactionary kitsch will get reactions from
>>> the group.
>>>
>>> For example it may be interesting to discuss, and difficult also,
>>> why works as the kind of works are what some of us judge them to be,
>>> kitsch, reactionary, uninteresting or whatever.
>>>
>>> Again, what is a good drawing?
>>>
>>> Ana Leonor
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2008/2/29, Damian Fennell <[log in to unmask]>:
>>>> Entirely agreed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 28 Feb 2008, at 19:17, Tom McGuirk wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Dear Damian
>>>> >
>>>> > I take your point about taste. I am fine with anyone presenting
>>>> > work that is not to my taste but not in the context of just
>>>> passing
>>>> > on seemingly automatically from a mailing list what many
>>>> > apart from me find irritating. I know I was being judgmental,
>>>> > apologies for that, but it was because of the context.
>>>> >
>>>> > Let a thousand flowers bloom by all means but don't stick them
>>>> > under my nose pointlessly and gratuitously and without argument.
>>>> > This forum is not going to be useful if it deteriorates into
>>>> > a un-self-regulated free for all. Present arguments and images,
>>>> > those others perhaps do not like approve of or agree with, but we
>>>> > need some discretion, otherwise the audience/
>>>> > participants will withdraw. There have to be some limits and
>>>> > standards or as we see every time these are ignored – there are
>>>> > mass requests to withdraw from the list.
>>>> >
>>>> > Kind regards
>>>> >
>>>> > Tom
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: "Damian Fennell" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> >> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> >> Subject: Re: Howard Terpning, "Storyteller of the Native
>>>> American
>>>> >> People" ... also models...for young students
>>>> >> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:24:47 +0000
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Whilst I commend anyone who desires to uphold standards of
>>>> >> appropriateness etc. on this forum, and as it happens I'm not
>>>> >> personally crazy about the work posted in Sylvia's email, I do
>>>> >> however feel that Tom's response was more a statement of
>>>> personal
>>>> >> taste than purely the principle of what is suitable to post.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I agree that it is inappropriate to post bulk mails from other
>>>> >> email networks as we can't choose to unsubscribe from it.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> However, this is an open drawing forum, and as subscribers to
>>>> it we
>>>> >> have to accept that some of the art content that is posted
>>>> will
>>>> >> not be to our individual taste.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Perhaps I might suggest though that members refrain from
>>>> including
>>>> >> images in their postings, but insert a link to a webpage
>>>> instead.
>>>> >> That way the rest of us can opt to visit the webpage, or not,
>>>> >> according to personal preference.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> all the best
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Damian Fennell.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 28 Feb 2008, at 18:00, Rachandspike wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Sometimes, my faith in mankind is just fully reinstated!!
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> BRAVO.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >>> From: The UK drawing research network mailing list
>>>> >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom
>>>> McGuirk
>>>> >>> Sent: 28 February 2008 16:55
>>>> >>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: Howard Terpning, "Storyteller of the Native
>>>> >>> American People"
>>>> >>> ... also models...for young students
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Dear all...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Apropos this mail (see below) I really feel that however well
>>>> >>> meaning, it is
>>>> >>> an inappropriate use of this mailing list/forum for members to
>>>> >>> merely
>>>> >>> forward without so much as comment or any
>>>> >>> analysis, material from other mailing lists/networks which they
>>>> >>> have at
>>>> >>> least had the choice of signing up to. I personally have no
>>>> interest
>>>> >>> whatsoever in reading about the dubiously titled:
>>>> >>> Masters of the American West Fine Art Exhibition and Sale or
>>>> their
>>>> >>> phenomenal sales figures and am now going to have to look at
>>>> >>> Degas or
>>>> >>> Schiele for a half an hour just to cleanse my
>>>> >>> retinas and my visual memory of this awful onslaught. At the
>>>> >>> bottom of this
>>>> >>> mail the original sender is offered the choice to unsubscribe,
>>>> I
>>>> >>> on the
>>>> >>> other hand have no defence against this
>>>> >>> unwanted – chauvinistic and colonialist – overblown, offensive,
>>>> >>> illustration
>>>> >>> masquerading as art, (the kind of thing that gives figurative
>>>> art
>>>> >>> a bad name
>>>> >>> – you can see my tolerance had been
>>>> >>> over stretched :-) ) if I wish to keep receiving the, for the
>>>> >>> most part,
>>>> >>> interesting contributions from the DR network. Please can we
>>>> see
>>>> >>> some
>>>> >>> discretion. I only have so much patience and
>>>> >>> more relevantly so much web-mail in-box space. For the love of
>>>> >>> Geronimo
>>>> >>> desist!! ?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Yours sincerely
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Tom McGuirk
>>>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>>> From: "Sylvia CORNET" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> >>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> >>>> Subject: Howard Terpning, "Storyteller of the Native American
>>>> >>>> People" ...
>>>> >>> also models...for young students
>>>> >>>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:17:35 +0100
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Début du message réexpédié :
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> De : "B & R Gallery" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Répondre à : [log in to unmask]
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Hi Sylvia,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Earlier this month, Barbara and I took several friends and
>>>> clients
>>>> >>>> to the opening weekend of the Masters of the American West
>>>> Fine
>>>> >>>> Art Exhibition and Sale, held at the Autry National Center
>>>> in Los
>>>> >>>> Angeles. This event, recognized as the country's most
>>>> important
>>>> >>>> Western art show, featured more than seventy nationally
>>>> recognized
>>>> >>>> contemporary artists. We got to meet many wonderful people
>>>> and see
>>>> >>>> a lot of incredible art. Total sales of $4.7 million set a
>>>> Autry
>>>> >>>> National Center record, so it was a very exciting and
>>>> successful
>>>> >>>> event. The exhibition is on-going until March 2. If you are
>>>> in
>>>> >>>> the Los Angeles area, we highly recommend that you see it.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Particularly exciting was the sale of Howard Terpning's Hard
>>>> Trails
>>>> >>>> Wore Out More Than Ponies for over $1.2 million. Howard
>>>> Terpning
>>>> >>>> also received the Thomas Moran Memorial Award for Painting,
>>>> adding
>>>> >>>> to a collection of accolades too numerous to list. At 79
>>>> years
>>>> >>>> old, Howard Terpning has once again shown himself to be the
>>>> >>>> preeminent Western artist of our time.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Howard Terpning's limited editions are highly collectible,
>>>> and we
>>>> >>>> are happy to present this opportunity to own this newly
>>>> released
>>>> >>>> canvas, from the "Storyteller ot the Native American
>>>> People".
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Proud Men
>>>> >>>> by Howard Terpning®
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Greenwich Workshop Fine Art Smallwork™ Giclée Canvas
>>>> >>>> 12" w x 11" h.
>>>> >>>> 550 s/n.
>>>> >>>> $350 US
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Shipping in March
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> All Art ©Howard Terpning® ©The Greenwich Workshop, Inc.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> We offer the largest selection of hard to find Terpning
>>>> limited
>>>> >>>> edition prints, artist's proofs and canvases. If you're
>>>> looking
>>>> >>>> for something specific let us know! We can obtain many
>>>> >>>> hard-to-find secondary market pieces for you (secondary
>>>> market:
>>>> >>>> prints available for re-sale by private parties or galleries
>>>> after
>>>> >>>> being sold out at the publisher).
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Call your art consultant at 1-800-255-6498 ( toll free in the
>>>> U.S.
>>>> >>>> or Canada) or 1-661-298-2038. You can also email your art
>>>> >>>> consultant by clicking one of the links below
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Eric [log in to unmask] (if a link doesn't work cut and paste
>>>> the
>>>> >>>> address into your email program --
>>>> >>>> Barbara ([log in to unmask])
>>>> >>>> Dave ([log in to unmask])
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> We can handle all your custom framing needs. If you don't see
>>>> >>>> exactly what you want on our Web site, simply describe what
>>>> you
>>>> >>>> want, and we can email you specific samples to ensure you get
>>>> >>>> exactly what you want, before we begin. We specialize in
>>>> quality
>>>> >>>> custom framing, and ship to satisfied customers all across
>>>> North
>>>> >>>> America and in Europe.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> When we frame your canvas, you can take it directly from the
>>>> box
>>>> >>>> and immediately hang it on your wall, and begin to fully
>>>> enjoy it
>>>> >>>> as soon as it arrives.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Sincerely,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Dave & Barbara Joseph
>>>> >>>> Co-Owners 26 years
>>>> >>>> B & R Art Gallery and Framing
>>>> >>>> 17720 Sierra Highway
>>>> >>>> Canyon Country, CA 91351
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Phone: 1-661-298-2038
>>>> >>>> Toll Free: 1-800-255-6498 (in U.S. and Canada)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> http://www.bnr-art.com
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> If you don't want to receive these announcements from us
>>>> click on
>>>> >>>> the link or send an email to [log in to unmask] with
>>>> unsubscribe in
>>>> >>>> the subject line
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
Doris Rohr
drawer / (re)searcher/ birdwomen
array studios
http://www.arraystudios.co.uk
[log in to unmask]
associate lecturer in painting
fIne and applied art
university of ulster
http://www.ulster.ac.uk
[log in to unmask]
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