Dear all,
Totally agree with John on this one. If we had waited until our data was perfect before putting it online, we would be waiting many hundreds of years. In fact we feel that visibility to the publix and peers might act as a spur to curators to spend more time on documentation.
Matthew
Head of Web | Department of Learning and Audiences | The British Museum | www.britishmuseum.org
Sent from Blackberry: 07971433841
-----Original Message-----
From: Museums Computer Group <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri Feb 08 08:40:20 2008
Subject: Re: APIs and EDL
Hi Robert,
I'd have to say that this is not my experience at all. We've had
experience of putting very diverse kinds on catalogue records online, at
very varying levels of detail, quality, and traditional "accessibility"
online for many years now.
As long as you are clear that you're just offering what you have "as
is", and don't promise the Earth, any catalogue data (well, any I've
seen anyway..) are much better than none. At least some people will find
it useful, and are grateful that something is available. A catalogue
doesn't need to be glamorous, exciting, popular or even 100% accurate to
be useful to at least some audiences.
As long as it doesn't take disproportionate resources to deliver (a big
factor), I think we should be doing this by default. For public museums,
the data, whatever their state, in a sense belong to the public, and I
don't really think we should be too proprietorial about them. As a
sector we will never have the resources to make all our data perfect,
but nobody expects this, except possibly, people in museums.
In the long run, I don't think we have anything to lose by being open.
Cheers
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Bud Robert
Sent: 07 February 2008 18:06
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: APIs and EDL
Speaking as a curator, the issue is often firstly the quality of data
within institutions and the expertise of the people for whom it was
created. Originally most catalogue entries were written by curators for
other curators within the same institution, who might be expected to
understand the meaning of a private language. Getting stuff `out there'
if it is only going to add to the noise on the internet will not add
value, only confusion.
Robert Bud
Science Museum
-----Original Message-----
From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
John Faithfull
Sent: 07 February 2008 16:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: APIs and EDL
Hi Nick,
I think that the huge gap between the amount of computerised catalogue
data which exists, and the amount publicly available online is bizarre,
bewildering and indefensible, given how technically simple the basic
task has been for a long time.
>One thing which we have come up against in various research projects
recently is that there is
>real reluctance from curators to make their data publicly available.
Interesting that you see this a a problem with curators. I'm a curator,
and I've worked with a lot of collections staff in lots of places and
lots of disciplines. My experience (admittedly unquantified) is the
opposite: curators are usually (but not always!) very keen to get stuff
out there. The problems are more with lack of technical knowlege in the
sector, poor feature sets and/or tools in commercial products, control
freakery about ownership and use of data within museum heirarchies, and
fear of being seen to be less than perfect. Responsibility for this
state of affairs is pretty widespread, rather than being simply the
fault of curators.
>I still hear an awful lot of 'we'll put it online when it's ready'.
Which, of course, it never will be. How we get past that one?
We need to sell a positive attitude to getting stuff out there. Users
will love having access, even to less-than-prefect records. Lots of them
like finding mistakes and letting you know about them. Peer-review of
your records has a lot to be said for it.
Cheers
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Nick Poole
Sent: 07 February 2008 15:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: APIs and EDL
John,
It's a good dream, and the right one and it's important not to lose
sight of it.
One approach we have been looking at is the possibility of integrating
API 'readiness' out-of-the-box for commercial Collections Management
Systems. It seems to us that one of the break points is in the actual
process of 'getting your CMS online' - which should in reality be
trivial (and will become more so as more of the system providers come to
adopt an Application Service Provider model).
This wouldn't, of course, get us round the policy and other issues
surrounding online publishing of collections info, but it seems logical
to treat the 'institution' repository in the same way as the 'public'
one.
One thing which we have come up against in various research projects
recently is that there is real reluctance from curators to make their
data publicly available. I still hear an awful lot of 'we'll put it
online when it's ready'. Which, of course, it never will be.
How we get past that one?
Nick
Nick Poole
Chief Executive
MDA
www.mda.org.uk
www.collectionslink.org.uk
Tel: 01223 316028
Fax: 01223 364658
MDA (Europe) Ltd: Company Registration No: 1300565 Reg. Office: 22 Hills
Road, Cambridge, CB2 1JP.
-----Original Message-----
From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
John Faithfull
Sent: 07 February 2008 15:36
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: APIs and EDL
Hi Jeremy,
>My hope (ever the optimist) was that museums would be able to bypass
the step of putting their
>data online themselves, with the technical expertise this can require,
and concentrate on
>providing this data to content aggregators and thence to EDL,
ultimately benefitting from an API
> that would let them present their collections online in their own
context (as well as on the EDL
> sorry, Europeana, portal)
Hmm - I think this depends on what you mean by "putting online". The
technical issues associated with tools and infrastructure to
automatically and sustainably feed updated content to content
aggregators etc, would seem very similar to those of "putting online" by
having access to a webserver somewhere.
>Another way to look at it: just say that future funding from one stream
or another, perhaps your
>local Hub, depended on your organisation depositing a set of data for
use within the EDL, what
>would you want back?
Again, depends what you mean by "depositing a data set". I think a model
which depends on manual gathering, polishing and delivery of data sets
to central hosts, who then tweak it by hand some more, is more or less
doomed before it starts. The challenge (and I don't think it's
impossible (!??!)) is to develop an infrastructure which allows this
process to be automated and sustained, for a diverse range of museums.
I'm not aware of much effort having gone into this so far. It seems a
potentially really useful area to develop.
>Would you have any interest in working with the application that housed
that data, or would you
>not be bothered?
I'm deeply suspicious of this. This has to work as a positively
beneficial service, or it won't happen at all. Resources are so scarce,
that the last thing we need is another obligation. We need stuff that
makes everything easier/cheaper/faster/better rather than having extra
things to do, at extra cost.
>I have no idea if EDL will flourish, let alone if there will ever be
any sort of obligation to
>house your content there, of course, but if it was in there then surely
you'd want to be able to
>play with it?
We can do this now, at least in the Hunterian. All our computerised
records have been online for several years, and all online content
updating is fully automated and hence sustainable. While our service
could undoubtedly be improved, we can do this ourselves, or get project
funding to do so. I don't see any current prospect of any deus ex
machina. I've not seen any central initiatives that offer anything much
in the way of skills or resources which will help. They're more likely
to be a distraction from the actual business of content creation. And
too often, they siphon off sector resources without delivering much...
>As you say, the big issue of decent data is yet to be solved. But if
you have it, and it's in EDL, >then the question is, what would you want
to do with it? EDL could take quite a load off and this >is where we get
to say how.
It's quite enough work for museums to maintain their own collections
managment data. Having to keep an eye on maintainence of separated
chunks of external data would simply not be feasible. Hence the need for
the links to be automated.
Maintain data once, in one place, and automate re-use as much as
possible. I have a dream...
Cheers
John
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