Not sure re the fish logo - a bit busy, a bit confrontational/aggressive, too much fussy fish detail, not a clear message & a bit fishy really....
Re: David's comments about 'predation', 'combat', 'taking back' etc. I ask - Is this imagery/discourse OK? If yes and we decide that we need to take back power and be aggressive and represent this - where do we draw the line? What is the line? Also, who defines what is 'OK' aggression? What happens if people define aggression differently and power differently? What is OK and not OK? I am with David that the 'dominant, western, white, male response' to problems is physical and aggressive. How can we do this differently? & How can we represent this differently?
Re: Paul's answer to the question - Isn't the image as representative of a lynch mob as it is of any thing else? Paul's response: 'Yes, the greater problem would be if it were more representative of it than anything else'. Is that really the issue? Surely that dismissses the potent power of symbolism and imagery in our society - it is not necessarliy about being 'more representative' but about the subtle and multifaceted representation of power and the symbolic power of the image and message regardless of the overt message. It is not necessarily about more - it is about 'the'.
By the way - I don't think this debate is trivial (what is trivial I ask?). Again, who defines what is serious?
M
________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Deborah Chinn
Sent: Sat 23/02/2008 7:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Lisbon and CPUK Logo (conflicting views)
I've laid low on this one for a while, but am going to say now that I am not that keen on the fish. The artist sounds like a brilliant guy, I'm OK about acknowledging the importance of direct confrontation in the face of oppression, but I'm just not that keen on the fish.
I do think the idea of a logo/symbol is a good one, as a way of nurturing some sort of positive collective identity. The learning disability team that I work in recently had a competition for a logo design, had a vote to chose one (the winning design was by one of our service users), then we commissioned a woodworking business staffed by people with learing disabilities to make a big wooden version. It is very heartwarming seeing it on the wall outside our office.
Maybe we could have a few more designs to look at and then go with the majority decision for deciding on one.
Deborah
----- Original Message -----
From: richard pemberton <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: Lisbon and CPUK Logo (conflicting views)
Your right and I am sorry about this but I have changed my mind again. This is too important to be represented by a load of fish and a black fish that is about to be had by a mob of red fish. Bellow is part of an interesting exchange going on, on the DCP managers faculty list, about the barriers put in front of non UK psychologists getting to practice here.
Someone called Nautius Oelefson has posted the following.
Perhaps it might also come as a surprise to UK psychologists that the psychological establishments in some other countries have already grappled for years with certain problems that we are only starting to face over here and that the psychologists from those countries may have skills in some areas that may be light years ahead of anything we have over here. For instance, I am thinking of people who may have trained in "poorer countries in Africa" (as a previous posting hints) where assessment tools may differ, but where the local community of psychologists may have developed skills at practicing psychology in multicultural contexts, interventions in communities, working through translators, working with traditional medicine and cultures, etc. which we badly need in the UK given the ever increasing diversity of the population in this country - why does the SoE not take such skills into account?
Surely to God its obvious that UK Community Psychology, in part, needs to be a well organised and influential section/group within the BPS. Bite the bullet and and accept the psyche logo? I'm not sure that a snake is much better than fish but the future of Applied Psychology in the UK is up for grabs. The personalisation and social inclusion agendas are writ large all over current social policy but we lack a psychology workforce that can understand and contribute fully to more just and socially progressive communities and services Some of the responsibility for this sits with people on this list? I know there is some work on this going on but I would suggest this needs to be on the agenda for the Edinburgh conference.
Richard
On 2/21/08, alison smith <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
A humbling thought though no doubt this was reflected on by many of us and forwarded on to people who may be able to help. There is importance in thrashing out these parameters though and as we have the liberty to be so mindful of these issues perhaps we have a responsibility to do so.
Perhaps there is not such a big gap anyway between the current debate and these real world events. It's interesting to think about how these issues of combat and conflict would fit in such a situation and perhaps allows us the chance to think about our values in a real world context.
________________________________
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:38:03 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Lisbon and CPUK Logo (conflicting views)
To: [log in to unmask]
My guess people are leaving because we are 'dancing on the head of a head logo' whilst issues like the post about the impending disaster in kenya doesnt merit much air space/reflection?
richard
On 2/21/08, alison smith <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
"That contradiction will be resolved by the appearance of the new man who is neither oppressor nor oppressed - man in the process of liberation'
Fantastic, this has now become my new favourite quote! cheers
Why are all these people leaving the list?! Hope it's nothing to do with images of terrorised fish.................(!)
x
________________________________
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:20:01 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Lisbon and CPUK Logo (conflicting views)
To: [log in to unmask]
Yes, Rachael is quite right. In fact the very next sentence to my quote is: 'That contradiction will be resolved by the appearance of the new man who is neither oppressor nor oppressed - man in the process of liberation', which I guess reflects Rachael's point about not 'simply reproducing dominant problematic social practices' (page 33 of penguin addition), with allowance given for the 1960's use of 'man' (or translation issue?)
I first knew about Freire as a horribly keen member of the SWP, mid-80s sometimes (well it happens, tho i cringe now at the thought), so I probably stopped reading at the end of my first quote, happy in the apparent knowledge that it was fine for me to go out and oppress people with my beliefs at tube stations. As proof, the corner of page 32 remains folded down all these years on.
So it's nice to have got to page 33. Thanks Rachael.
p
"The UK Community Psychology Discussion List" <[log in to unmask]> writes:
I think BA's critique of SC is interesting especially re gender. Being aware that men (including me) tend to post more than women on this list, I first listed the comments and genders of the commentators because I wondered if there was a gender dimension to the positions taken.
Whilst it is more complicated than that, of course, I think there is / would be general agreement amongst list members that there is conflict between of the interests of different societal groups and that this is problematic and needs to be tackled but different positions taken as to whether this should be tackled by 'predation', 'combat', 'taking back' etc. (which seem to implicate interpersonal struggle discourses) on the one hand or by passionate refutation, dispersion and fairer redistribution of power (which seem to implicate structural change discourses) on the other.
The Freire quote ("It is therefore essential that the oppressed wage the struggle to resolve the contradiction in which they are caught.") is interesting because it seems to bridge two positions? "Wage the struggle" seems to have a whiff of machismo whereas "resolve the contradiction in which they are caught" seems more about socio-structural engagement?
I wrote the above before receiving Rachael's post but agree with Rachael where she writes: "aggression towards things we perceive as problematic or wrong as a strategy for change is simply reproducing dominant problematic social practices that we spend our time criticising and fighting against. I find it a very dominant, western, white, male response that I don't identify with"
David
________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of richard pemberton
Sent: Thu 2/21/2008 11:49
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Lisbon and CPUK Logo (conflicting views)
Barabara Arneils book critiquing social capital is interesting on conflict. Her thesis is that lowered reported levels of trust in communities may not always be a bad thing because goups such as women and disabled people have strengthed their social positions/value and these changes are usually associated with increased levels of conflict/struggle. Traditionally powerful groups - eg white able bodied van man? have lost out? To some extent conflict is life. There is in my book healthy and unhealthy conflict but I guess it depends where you are sitting and your values as to how you see/experience this. There is certainly rubbish conflict and petty point scoring in psychology but I guess this isnt a respectful place to start from.!
Richard
On 2/21/08, David Fryer <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
For interest I have looked back at the message referring to predatory / conflictual behaviour and community psychology and have summarised below. Some comments are ambiguous on the point. Some people changed their mind so feature in both sections. The order is pretty arbitrary. Apologies if I missed anyone's comment out.
'Pro conflict'
*
Mark " Is predatory behaviour OK after all as long as we are the predator rather than the prey? Yes - you have to take back power."
* Paul "Q Is predatory behaviour OK after all as long as we are the predator rather than the prey? A Yes, if we go after greedy, socially irresponsible corporations."
* Richard: "the logo/image is good - its strong, gets conflict on the table"
* John McG "Nothing wrong with combative at all"
* John Cromby: "Whatever is wrong with combative? Do we imagine that those in power will simply hand it over, if we only ask nicely enough?!"
'Anti-conflict'
* David F "Is predatory behaviour OK after all as long as we are the predator rather than the prey?"
* John McG "I also think David is right. It is quite predatory and combative. Is that a good stance? It might be quite a seductive one but I'm not so sure how useful it is."
* Richard "Why would this predatory, animal, presumably under water, image be symbolic of uk community psychology?"
* Alison: "I'm still unsure how much conflict we are trying to get on the table. Processes are often as important if not more important than the end result; would it be trite to suggest that we think more in terms of passionate refutation?(!) I'm just conscious that what (i think) we are trying to achieve is cohesion and the fair distribution of power. Do conflict and combat pave the way for this?"
* Alison "there is something problematic in taking a predatory stance regardless of whether you are a big or little fish"
* Alison "Who is it that is taking back the power, isn't it more about dispersing it?"
David
________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of alison smith
Sent: Thu 2/21/2008 09:29
To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lisbon and CPUK Logo
I'm still unsure how much conflict we are trying to get on the table. Processes are often as important if not more important than the end result; would it be trite to suggest that we think more in terms of passionate refutation?(!) I'm just conscious that what (i think) we are trying to achieve is cohesion and the fair distribution of power. Do conflict and combat pave the way for this?
I realise it would be breaking the image somewhat but should the big fish be a fish when what it stands for is systems?
ps cheers John
________________________________
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:15:17 +0000
From: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lisbon and CPUK Logo
To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
I have changed my mind - I think the logo/image is good - its strong, gets conflict on the table and certainly attracts attention.
Richard
On 2/20/08, Fash D <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
With all due respect and following this discussion, which seems to have elicited much comment, I think a more appropriate logo would consist of many small fish swimming in different directions, creating an unrecognisable shape: therefore better representing community psychology in the UK.
Fash D Jackson
----- Original Message ----
From: Craig Newnes <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >
To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, 20 February, 2008 3:14:28 PM
Subject: Re: Lisbon and CPUK Logo
Ken Sprague was Marcia Karp's partner. Some of you may, like me, have been down to their place for psychodrama and great food/walks near Barnstaple. I have a couple of Ken's original make-ups for Daily Mirror cartoons he did way back. I'm sure the psychodramatic weekends made people more inclined to buy his art, if only as a keepsake. He is, indeed, sadly missed but lives on through his work.
As for logos - the best thing to do is carry on arguing. Perhaps, as the symbolism is - as always - interpretable in numerous ways, we should add a few pages of text explaining what each element stands for....
Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: Annie Mitchell <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Lisbon and CPUK Logo
this logo was designed by Ken Sprague, community artist, who sadly died 2004. He contributed the logo for the UK community psych conference that year ( I had presumed that he designed it specially for us; you may remember we had T shirts using it) , and I am crossing my fingers that there is no copyright. Knowing his politics my guess is that he would be pleased at the use to which we are putting his design.
See obituary from the Guardian on "ttp://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2004/aug/06/guardianobituaries.artsobituaries1 <http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2004/aug/06/guardianobituaries.artsobituaries1>
Also there is a book about his work: see "ttp://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~jimella/sprague/book.htm <http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~jimella/sprague/book.htm>
Also an article, which also features this design - which makes me wonder if it's been used elsewhere, on "ttp://www.catalystmedia.org.uk/issues/nerve8/ken_sprague.htm <http://www.catalystmedia.org.uk/issues/nerve8/ken_sprague.htm>
Good wishes,
Annie
Annie Mitchell
Clinical Director,
Doctorate in Clinical Psychology,
School of Applied Psychosocial Studies,
Faculty of Health and Social Work,
University of Plymouth,
Peninsula Allied Health Collaboration,
Derriford Road,
Plymouth,
Devon
PL6 8BH
Phone Programme Administrators:
Jane Murch, Emma Hellingsworth
01752 233786
Please note I work 3 days per week:
usually Monday, Tuesday & either Wednesday or Thursday.
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ] On Behalf Of Paul@home
Sent: 19 February 2008 17:30
To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Lisbon and CPUK Logo
Dear all,
A while ago there was the suggestion that the 'swimming with the fishes' logo be adopted for CPUK (logo attached).. I have fiddled with it a little - added our name as a strap line and placed it on a button so it can be placed on non-white websites. Unless enough people object by the end of this week, I will send this to the organisers of the 2008 International Conference on Community Psychology in Lisbon. The organisers would include our logo on their website and CPUK will be cited as a co-sponsor of the event (don't worry, it is intellectual rather than financial sponsorship).
p
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