Actually, that reminds, me, when I was working on Witchcraft Mag a lot of
readers - modern Australian Witches - got really cross when I insinuated
that they were atheistic, which they were. They didn't see that Witchcraft
(modern non-initiatory Witchcraft, although stylistically derived from
Wicca, which *does* have deities, the "God and Goddess" at minimum and full
blown religious interaction at max) had anything to do with gods, belief,
recriprocity...The "gods" of Witchcraft, apparently, were a way for women to
love their periods, and for men to explore being gentle... Although in
spells the gods might or might not be mentioned/incorporated in the text, my
impression was, for those readers, that they didn't particularly believe in
or care about deities - although these same people *would* also identify as
"Pagans". (But without deities... what is a Pagan???)
So... what about non-Wiccan-derived Witchcraft, as in pre-Witchcraft revival
witchcraft (not Robert Cochrane Witchraft which I think is too like Wicca to
be particularly "pre" revival)? Doesn't that usually incorporate deities or
some other ritual-empowerer? Even cunning folk added "the Father Son and
Holy Ghost"...
In British initiatory Wicca, well I'm sure I read it in Gardner or one of
his students, the "magical power" comes from the Witch's body... so again...
what do [modern witches] need deities for? To worship, to love?
But then again lots of Witches *are* very interactive with their deities.
Are these Witches of a more (serious) Pagan bent?
Is it a case of (the simplistic I know) difference between "religion" versus
"magic"? If one is primarily trying to cause change in accordance with your
will... do you need to believe in or care about the gods?
.:shrug:.
~Caroline.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Waldron" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Deities
> Well for me its an area I find increasingly problematic and, indeed, I am
> curious if one creates gods and goddesses as convenient why not simply do
> the job yourself and why bother with terms like Pagan at all. Given this
> kind of approach is miles from historical paganism I find it difficult to
> see how it should conceptually hold together at all in any meaningful way.
> Indeed I tend to find it all tends to crumble in a Schlegelian way when
> subjected to critique. Especially with the odd juxtaposition of
> tradition, pop culture and Chistian/Judaic loose versions of hermeticism
> and gnosticism out of cosmological and cultural context.
> David
>
>
> Caroline Tully wrote:
>> Yes its actually an aetheistic approach to deities - you only exist
>> because I/we believe in you. It's like Peter Pan's Tinkerbell fading away
>> when all the children stopped believing in fairies. One wonders what the
>> point in believing in deities actually is if they aren't really real. Is
>> it like an externalisation of an aspect of one's inner self, blown up
>> big, and then appealed to/commanded? Why not cut out the ritual and go do
>> the job yourself?
>> ~Caroline.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* David Waldron <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 19, 2008 12:07 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Lovecraft- was A question
>> about Ganesh
>>
>> There seems to be this underlying ideology here that belief
>> creates power and deities are somehow akin to a Tulpa. I am not
>> really sure how that plays out but if you follow it then you can
>> invest abstract cultural references with magical/divine energy in
>> theory. Rather terry Pratchetts Small Gods in a way. Its a
>> different take to the existent Gods of history or the
>> psychologising of deities I've usually come across. Still I
>> wonder, given the discussion of replacing Hercules or Aries with
>> Chuck Norris, if Chuck Norris is prayed to and invoked will he get
>> super powers? ;-) Well someone before came up with the line of
>> using Peter Griffin and Lois as incarnation of the God and Goddess
>> and they get super powers all the time. :-P
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>> Caroline Tully wrote:
>>> >>What real value (or power, or whatever other qualifier you care
>>> to attribute) can something truly be said to have if no one knows
>>> it's there,<<
>>> That's a bit human-centric isn't it? What about things we will
>>> never see, things at the bottom of the sea like a big sea
>>> volcano, or in outer space like say, black holes, they have power
>>> and we might not know they are there. Or do you mean some kind of
>>> other sort of "power"?
>>> ~Caroline.
>>
>
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