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ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC  February 2008

ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC February 2008

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Subject:

Re: Lovecraft- was A question about Ganesh

From:

David Waldron <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Society for The Academic Study of Magic <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:56:08 +1100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (205 lines)

Tupla worshipers????

I am just speaking about the two groups I know personally and I am not 
making broader statements about the structures of Paganism.  Personally 
though I think its a supernaturalising  of psychologial archetypes.  It 
also does not see the beings as divine in their own right but a creation 
of human interaction with the magical realm.  It still fist within the 
archetypal model of Paganism but invests them with divine power through 
a gnostic model of supernaturalism. 
Just a view through early morning cuppa tea time.
Cheers
David



Ty Falk wrote:
> So where do you assign those folk who feel that by ascribing energy to 
> those psychological truths they call the literal beings into literal 
> existence?
>
> On Feb 18, 2008 6:46 PM, David Waldron <[log in to unmask] 
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
>     Well I think this hits the fundamental division between the recons and
>     the hermetic Pagans I know.  The recons believe in an existent literal
>     polytheism grounded in history and heritage where as the hermetic (and
>     fluffies) tend to see them as archetypes of psycological truths.
>     Depends on your underlying epistemological basis of faith.  In a sense
>     its why I am increasingly seeing neo-Paganism splitting between
>     historicist and archetypal practitioners given that their respective
>     world views are increasingly becoming incompatible.
>     Cheers
>     David
>
>
>
>     D E wrote:
>     > I see nothing odd with having a trekkie mythos ritual
>     >
>     > I think it was Phil Hine who made the two points that (a) if ritual
>     > participants know Star Trek and not Greek myths there is no point in
>     > hitting them with a Greek mythic ritual when Star Trek
>     characters have
>     > far more resonance with them and (b) a lot of things in Star
>     Trek (and
>     > all modern tv culture) are Greek myths reworked in any case.
>     Star Trek
>     > has an inner cohesion and set of rules (much like cabbala) and could
>     > be regarded as a mythic cycle... the main difference is lack of
>     > longevity- Greek myths are merely older, but how much "more
>     true" are
>     > they? Hard to work out a unit of measure on that front...
>     >
>     > dave a
>     >
>     >
>     >     ----- Original Message -----
>     >     *From:* David Waldron <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>     >     *To:* [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     >     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>     >     *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2008 11:26 PM
>     >     *Subject:* Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Lovecraft- was A question
>     >     about Ganesh
>     >
>     >     In any case Lovecraft didn't really have a systematized
>     mythos per
>     >     se.  It was put onto his work retrospectively by fans and, of
>     >     course, August Derleth.  I think it tends to problematise
>     the kind
>     >     of hermetic reading some chaos magicians etc give to his work.
>     >     Personally I find the use of the fictionalised characters a
>     little
>     >     odd and exist because he is an esoteric writer who is gothic and
>     >     cool from a late 20th C point of view.  It seems to me
>     pretty much
>     >     the same as some D&D pagans I knew a while back who used
>     Takhisis
>     >     and Paladine as imago die.  I wonder if people follow David
>     >     Eddings deities.  :-P   It would be all cutesy idealized
>     rural New
>     >     England.  I've heard of a group using Star Trek characters for
>     >     that matter.  I am sure the Discordians would love that sort of
>     >     thing and it makes my recon friends and contacts burst out
>     laughing.
>     >     David
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     Daniel Harms wrote:
>     >>     I wouldn't put it quite in those terms.  I see there being
>     numerous different "Lovecrafts" - the Lovecraft of "The Dunwich
>     Horror", the Lovecraft of "The Hound", the Lovecraft of "At the
>     Mountains of Madness", the Lovecraft of his letters (who could in
>     turn be several Lovecrafts) - and different people take the
>     Lovecraft they want.  Sure, Lovecraft says in "At the
>     Mountains..." that the Old Ones are aliens, but you don't have to
>     listen to him.
>     >>
>     >>     Plus, it might not be quite so much of a tension.
>      Lovecraft himself used his mechanistic materialism to justify his
>     personal aesthetics - if the universe really doesn't have a
>     special place for humanity, then seeking out enjoyment and
>     fulfillment in art is perfectly justifiable.  I think the chaos
>     magicians differ from him insofar as they do not turn to
>     traditional forms as Lovecraft did, and that they believe their
>     art work on a level other than the artistic.
>     >>
>     >>     Dan Harms
>     >>     Coordinator of Instruction Librarian
>     >>     State University of New York - Cortland
>     >>     Memorial Library B-110
>     >>     (607) - 753-4042
>     >>
>     >>     ________________________________
>     >>
>     >>     From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic on behalf of
>     Justin Woodman
>     >>     Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 5:42 PM
>     >>     To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     >>     Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Lovecraft- was A
>     question about Ganesh
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>     I pretty much agree with much of the below  - the use of the
>     >>     Derleth-influenced Simon Necronomicon as the
>     'authoritative' text on the
>     >>     Lovecraft mythos being a case in point.
>     >>
>     >>     Although I tend to think of Lovecraft as being either
>     misread or
>     >>     misunderstood in many occultural recensions of his work, I
>     do think that a
>     >>     tension exists between Lovecraft's mechanistic materialism
>     and a kind of
>     >>     romantic Gnostic sensibility sometimes found in his letters
>     and fiction
>     >>     -  a tension which inadvertantly allows for a more
>     'supernaturalist'
>     >>     interpretation of his work.
>     >>
>     >>     Justin
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>>     I've noticed that those enthusiastic about Lovecraftian
>     magical
>     >>>     activities often disregard the considerable and growing
>     body of Lovecraft
>     >>>     (literary) criticism.
>     >>>     And, although I
>     >>>     tend not to look to an author's intentions for an
>     appreciation of her or
>     >>>     his works, Lovecraft seems not to have been successful at
>     getting the
>     >>>     supernatural out of his stories, as far as many of his
>     readers are
>     >>>     concerned.
>     >>>
>     >>>     Another observation. The version of the Mythos that magical
>     >>>     practitioners (that I've met) often turn to is not
>     strictly Lovecraft's. It
>     >>>     is the later expansion and reorganization carried out by
>     August Derleth and
>     >>>     the Arkham House editions. Derleth had no issue with the
>     supernatural in
>     >>>     the Mythos, and regularized the Mythos pantheon according
>     to widespread
>     >>>     occultural notions.
>     >>>
>     >>>     Musing I Have Met Yog-Sothoth & ........ Rose,
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>     Pitch
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>     --
>     >>     Dr. Justin Woodman
>     >>     Course Convenor
>     >>     Integrated Degree in Social Anthropology
>     >>     Department of Professional and Community Education
>     >>     Goldsmiths College
>     >>     New Cross
>     >>     London SE14 6NW
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Ty Falk
> ~~~~~~~
> Erisian
> Anthropologist
> Grand Rapids, MI, USA 

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