Conversion of HNC/Ds to FDs is already a mini-industry, that will accelerate rapidly as a result of this policy implementation.  

And of course it will also encourage more FECs to go for Foundation Degree Awarding Powers, which may not be what the HE sector desires, and may not be for the best in the FE sector either as we have a long history of successful relationship with BTEC.  But I see little alternative.

Mike Milne-Picken
Bradford College
-----Original Message-----
From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Norris
Sent: 28 November 2007 09:13
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ELQs - the Government's advice to students

While Foundation Degrees are exempted, of course.

I foresee a great deal of revalidation of those HNDs that haven't already been moved over.

Regards

Paul

--
Paul Norris
Head of Planning
University of Bedfordshire

>>> Mike Milne-Picken <[log in to unmask]> 11/28/07
9:07 am >>>
Bradford College Open Days 2008. Make a date to come and see us.
11 March 2008, 12pm - 8pm   -   1 July 2008, 12pm - 8pm   -   21 August
2008, 12pm - 8pm

Given that one of the biggest areas affected for us and other FE Colleges are students on HNCs and HNDs, the use of the term 'second degrees' is dreadful.

We will have to explain to our students who have an HND or degree in a non-relevant subject, why they do not have to pay extra if they want to do social work, teacher training or any foundation degree, but will have to pay full whack if they want to do youth and community work, counselling, computing, textile design or business!  For degrees in Ophthalmic Dispensing and Metallurgy, which attract some ELQ learners wanting to retrain in something where there are jobs, there will have to be a quota system.  

But if they want to do an A level with us in any subject, even one they've already got (!), along with Level 2 computer maintenance and 1,000 other FE courses, they are entitled to state subsidised fees! 
It's a recipe for mass confusion.

As for the £100k, this is going to become another one of those government bite-sized factoids trotted out by ministers to justify poorly thought out policies. 

£55k of it is actually compulsory secondary education which every one must do (presumably 11 years x £5k p a)!  The other £45k, includes 2 years of 'sixth form' study (2 x£5k =£10k say) and up to six years of HE
(2 degreees x 3 years) presumably therefore at £6k per annum (HEFCE grant plus maintenance plus subsidy for loan interest rate).  

Not far from real levels of funding, but an extreme case nonetheless and certainly not typical of our ELQs. The actual 'extra cost' for this extreme example is 18% of the total education cost, but for our typical example, it probably nets off, as many of our ELQ learners did not stay in sixth form but entered HE as mature learners (and if they did study in our sixth form or access/vocational courses they will have saved the government up to £2k per learner less than those who stayed at school to do A levels - just a little dig there to remind them of the differential of funding between schools and colleges!).

What a travesty!

Mike Milne-Picken
Bradford College
  

-----Original Message-----
From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dave Radcliffe
Sent: 27 November 2007 18:50
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ELQs - the Government's advice to students

At the HEFCE seminar consultation event, HEFCE were quite particular about not calling them "second degrees" because of the enormous confusion that this could lead to. Yet DIUS jumps in with both feet. 

I'm intrigued by the £100k support for a 2nd degree compared to the £55k for a 16yr old school leaver. Where does £100k come from? Is it the additional taxpayer support for 2 years of post compulsory, then 6 years of 2 undergraduate degrees? Or has the unit resource just been increased without anyone noticing?

Dave

Dr Dave Radcliffe
Senior Planning Officer
Planning Office, University of Birmingham



-----Original Message-----
From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Anne Robson
Sent: 27 November 2007 18:23
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ELQs - the Government's advice to students

If you haven't already seen DIUS's advice to prospective students on 'second degrees' (aka ELQs), you can see it here:

http://www.dius.gov.uk/publications/hefunding.html 

There are some skilfully-crafted phrases. Try these:
 
'From September 2008 ... taxpayer support ... will start to be reduced.

The pace of change will be fairly slow in 2008/09 with only about £25 million being redistributed which is 0.2% of the total money we give...'

'We recognise that these changes may mean that institutions increase their tuition fees for Second Degrees, although they are not obliged to do so.'

'The majority of students planning to [enrol] next year are still likely to be able to find places although they will need to contact the institution at which they are hoping to study'

'At the moment, across the whole of their education, the taxpayer contributes about £100,000 on average to support students who get a second degree, compared with about £55,000 for someone who leaves school at sixteen ... it [is] hard to justify this both to taxpayers and to those who haven't yet benefited from Higher Education and got a first degree' 

I am tempted to ask whether anyone can offer a suitable 'second degree'

for the author of the statement - how about a joint honours in Maths and Creative Writing? Any other suggestions?

Regards,
Anne

Anne Robson
Head of Planning
Strategic Planning and Intelligence
Sheffield Hallam University
Pond Street
SHEFFIELD
S1 1WB.
 
Email:   [log in to unmask] 
Tel:     0114-225-2984




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