um
KS
On 15/10/2007, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Figure out the right moves, KS, and then
> use some others.
>
> Hal
>
> "You are not thinking. You are merely
> being logical."
> --Niels Bohr to Albert Einstein
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> [log in to unmask]
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>
>
> On Oct 15, 2007, at 4:22 PM, kasper salonen wrote:
>
> > gotcha. tells you something about the power the title-addition has,
> > with all this puzzlement. whether that means that intuition is the
> > right move or not for something this apparently far-reaching is not
> > easy to say
> >
> > KS
> >
> > On 15/10/2007, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> Hi, Kasper--
> >>
> >> Being perplexed isn't all that bad now, is it?
> >>
> >> I work more from intuition and serendipity and
> >> instinct than from planning and reasoning. So,
> >> whether the word "sonnet" appears in a title
> >> is worked out on a case by case basis.
> >>
> >> In any case, I'm much less interested in "defining"
> >> the word "sonnet" than in other things, such
> >> as sound, rhythm (not meter), syntax, diction,
> >> tone, etc. etc. etc.
> >>
> >> Hal, (more) forthcoming now due to increasing
> >> perplexity about your perplexity
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Special
> >>
> >> The Sonnet Project
> >> http://www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf
> >>
> >> Halvard Johnson
> >> ================
> >> [log in to unmask]
> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
> >>
> >>
> >> On Oct 15, 2007, at 8:01 AM, kasper salonen wrote:
> >>
> >>> my critical blabbering can be considered torture, I guess!
> >>>
> >>> I was just wondering *why* & *how* you define it more broadly, but
> >>> you've not been very forthcoming with your interpretation. you don't
> >>> have to be, if you'd rather I & someone else kept being perplexed at
> >>> the 'sonnet'-title you give many of your poems.
> >>>
> >>> KS
> >>>
> >>> On 14/10/2007, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>>> That pretty much sums it up, Kasper. I define "sonnet" more
> >>>> broadly (okay, much more broadly) than you do.
> >>>>
> >>>> I also define "torture" much more broadly than Bush does,
> >>>> not that I'm paralleling you to Bush in any way.
> >>>>
> >>>> Hal
> >>>>
> >>>> "If you can't annoy somebody, what's
> >>>> the point in writing?"
> >>>> --Kingsley Amis
> >>>>
> >>>> Halvard Johnson
> >>>> ================
> >>>> [log in to unmask]
> >>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> >>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> >>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> >>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> >>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Oct 14, 2007, at 11:11 AM, kasper salonen wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> well the problem I have with sonnets, if it can be called a
> >>>>> problem,
> >>>>> is that I generally don't consider the form to be much at all
> >>>>> without
> >>>>> its structure. I mean, originally I believe a sonnet was intended
> >>>>> fairly strictly as a love poem, even an ode-like addressal
> >>>>> (Petrarch's
> >>>>> Laura &c.); that seems to have fallen away entirely as a
> >>>>> requirement.
> >>>>> I used to write a lot of sonnets, none of them about love; the
> >>>>> only
> >>>>> thing that made them sonnets, to me, was the (optional) ABAB & the
> >>>>> iambic pentameter. looking back, they were all quite
> >>>>> introspective &
> >>>>> yet broad, descriptions & propsals for connections (links between
> >>>>> forest, heaven, home, monastery, that sort of thing); but that
> >>>>> came
> >>>>> pretty much along with the form, which almost requires some
> >>>>> form of
> >>>>> deep thought for the iambic punching to be worth anything.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> but take away the structure, as Hal has done, and I see little or
> >>>>> nothing to indicate or even remind me of the form. Hal you say
> >>>>> it's a
> >>>>> "broad, deep river"; you clearly have strong personal reasons for
> >>>>> believing that, but I don't see it personally -- I wouldn't mind
> >>>>> being
> >>>>> talked into it. I've always considered the sonnet to be a very
> >>>>> shallow
> >>>>> poetic form, one of those "form justifies content" (meaning that a
> >>>>> sonnet was good as long as the rhymes & metre were in place)
> >>>>> sort of
> >>>>> deals which drove me away from metric poetry in the first place.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> some early sonnets were quite provocative in ways, mentioning
> >>>>> kings &
> >>>>> priests & laymen in contexts in which they weren't supposed to
> >>>>> appear;
> >>>>> so maybe by calling an anti-Bush poem a 'sonnet' means to bring
> >>>>> out
> >>>>> some mode of ancient commentary?
> >>>>> as to the way sonnets 'move and behave', as Joanna put it, I would
> >>>>> attribute ALL movement & behaviour to be confined within the
> >>>>> cage of
> >>>>> its structure. without the cage, it can go anywhere & thus escape
> >>>>> classification.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> KS
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 14/10/2007, Joanna Boulter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>>>>> Yes I know, the exception rather than the rule, and a matter for
> >>>>>> comment. It
> >>>>>> might be interesting to look at a few of them, and see what
> >>>>>> actually does
> >>>>>> make them sonnets rather than thirteen-line poems. *If we can
> >>>>>> find
> >>>>>> enough
> >>>>>> examples that we can agree on as being true examples.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But to my mind, a sonnet is more than just the number of its
> >>>>>> lines, and I
> >>>>>> suspect that this is what Kasper's feeling here, possibly Janet
> >>>>>> too. I mean,
> >>>>>> not all four-legged animals are dogs -- there are differentials
> >>>>>> that mark
> >>>>>> them out instantly from cats. Nor do the tailless Manx cat and
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> boxer dog
> >>>>>> with the docked tail cloud the issue there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I suspect it's something to do with the way they move and behave,
> >>>>>> but would
> >>>>>> be interested to see what others think.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> joanna
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "andrew burke" <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:21 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Sonnets (Re: Sonnet for the Criminally Insane )
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There have been 13 line sonnets in history, y'know ...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Andrew
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 14/10/2007, Joanna Boulter <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Good questions, Janet, especially that last para.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have a habit of writing short poems which turn out to be 13-
> >>>>>>>> liners. A
> >>>>>>>> surprising number of people say "Why don't you add another
> >>>>>>>> line,
> >>>>>>>> and then
> >>>>>>>> it'll be a sonnet?" My answer is usually "It doesn't want to be
> >>>>>>>> one --
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> yes, I did ask it!" However, the real reason I don't is more
> >>>>>>>> likely that
> >>>>>>>> I've said what I need to say in 13 lines and can see no
> >>>>>>>> point in
> >>>>>>>> adding a
> >>>>>>>> 14th for the sake of it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Having said that, though, I can and do write sonnets.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> joanna
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>> From: "Janet Jackson" <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:52 AM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Sonnets (Re: Sonnet for the Criminally Insane )
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Mine are non-metrical, non-rhyming (for the most part)
> >>>>>>>>>> sonnets. The sonnet's a broad, deep river with interesting
> >>>>>>>>>> eddies at its margins.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> OK, Hal, please would you educate us?
> >>>>>>>>> What makes a poem a sonnet, and not just a 14-line poem?
> >>>>>>>>> That it presents an opinion?
> >>>>>>>>> That the lines are longish and all about the same length?
> >>>>>>>>> That if you really work at it you read it with five stresses
> >>>>>>>>> per line?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I have a book somewhere that claims sonnets should have
> >>>>>>>>> a "volta", a twist at about line 9, but I don't see that
> >>>>>>>>> in this one.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I suspect Kasper is more interested in why you bother
> >>>>>>>>> labelling
> >>>>>>>>> it a sonnet, what your purpose is in doing that.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Janet
> >>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> ------
> >>>>>>>>> Janet Jackson <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>>>>> www.myspace.com/poetjj
> >>>>>>>>> www.proximity.webhop.net
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Allegedly, some kid poet came over to Robert Frost at some
> >>>>>>>>> gathering
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> introduced himself by saying "I'm a poet." Frost replied
> >>>>>>>>> "That's a
> >>>>>>>>> praise word. I'd wait 'til someone else called me that."
> >>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> ------
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Andrew
> >>>>>>> http://hispirits.blogspot.com/
> >>>>>>> http://www.inblogs.net/hispirits
> >>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/aburke/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
>
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