I agree, Martin -- not necessarily the rhyme-scheme, and I personally don't
count syllables but major stresses, which gives room for flexibility with
intervening lighter sounds, changes of pace, etc.
Yes, the basic eight/six line division. And yet there are plenty of examples
of this turn coming at eight and a half or nine, or even, occasionally, at
seven, and still recongnisably sonnets. I would swear that Dylan Thomas
breaks some of his 4-6-4, but to my fury I can't find the examples now.
However, I've tried that pattern myself, and it's not only deeply satisfying
to work with, it still feels as though it's a member of the sonnet tribe.
There always seemed to me to be so much less scope with the Shakespearean
version. Its template, to use your term, is more restrictive, seeming to
affect the possible subject matter somehow. I got bored with it very early.
(Will anyone speak up for the poor thing? Rodent?)
joanna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Dolan" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: Sonnets (Re: Sonnet for the Criminally Insane )
> The answer varies, I think, depending on whether you take the
> Shakespearian or the Petrarchan as your template.
>
> For me, the Shakespearian is didactic, with that last couplet (or two
> lines if we're not using rhyme) thumping out the intended point, and less
> dependent on the volta. The Petrarchan, though, seems constructed around
> that change between the octave and the sestet and what you balance between
> the two.
>
> I've written the latter unrhymed and they still seem sonnet-like to me.
> I've relaxed the metre until it disappears and it feels like a sonnet.
> That basic eight/six line division seems to be the key.
>
> Don't know about Shakespearian - never been able to do them successfully.
>
> Martin
>
> Joanna Boulter wrote:
>> Yes I know, the exception rather than the rule, and a matter for comment.
>> It might be interesting to look at a few of them, and see what actually
>> does make them sonnets rather than thirteen-line poems. *If we can find
>> enough examples that we can agree on as being true examples.
>>
>> But to my mind, a sonnet is more than just the number of its lines, and I
>> suspect that this is what Kasper's feeling here, possibly Janet too. I
>> mean, not all four-legged animals are dogs -- there are differentials
>> that mark them out instantly from cats. Nor do the tailless Manx cat and
>> the boxer dog with the docked tail cloud the issue there.
>>
>> I suspect it's something to do with the way they move and behave, but
>> would be interested to see what others think.
>>
>> joanna
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "andrew burke" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: Sonnets (Re: Sonnet for the Criminally Insane )
>>
>>
>>> There have been 13 line sonnets in history, y'know ...
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>> On 14/10/2007, Joanna Boulter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good questions, Janet, especially that last para.
>>>>
>>>> I have a habit of writing short poems which turn out to be 13-liners. A
>>>> surprising number of people say "Why don't you add another line, and
>>>> then
>>>> it'll be a sonnet?" My answer is usually "It doesn't want to be one --
>>>> and
>>>> yes, I did ask it!" However, the real reason I don't is more likely
>>>> that
>>>> I've said what I need to say in 13 lines and can see no point in adding
>>>> a
>>>> 14th for the sake of it.
>>>>
>>>> Having said that, though, I can and do write sonnets.
>>>>
>>>> joanna
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Janet Jackson" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:52 AM
>>>> Subject: Sonnets (Re: Sonnet for the Criminally Insane )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >> Mine are non-metrical, non-rhyming (for the most part)
>>>> >> sonnets. The sonnet's a broad, deep river with interesting
>>>> >> eddies at its margins.
>>>> >
>>>> > OK, Hal, please would you educate us?
>>>> > What makes a poem a sonnet, and not just a 14-line poem?
>>>> > That it presents an opinion?
>>>> > That the lines are longish and all about the same length?
>>>> > That if you really work at it you read it with five stresses per
>>>> line?
>>>> >
>>>> > I have a book somewhere that claims sonnets should have
>>>> > a "volta", a twist at about line 9, but I don't see that
>>>> > in this one.
>>>> >
>>>> > I suspect Kasper is more interested in why you bother labelling
>>>> > it a sonnet, what your purpose is in doing that.
>>>> >
>>>> > Janet
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