Thanks so much, Kasper -- I thought that must have been what Kaari meant,
but never got round to asking her at the time, and it's been teasing at me
for 10 years.
joanna
----- Original Message -----
From: "kasper salonen" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: Snap, 26 September 07 : Rite of Spring
ahh I do apologise. I should know better than to talk about 'realness'
or 'correctness' in linguistics! I retract the part about any word
being more 'real' than another. :) realness doesn't actually come into
it, all that matters really is context. Shakespeare's words with
shifted modern meanings, first to mind is 'stuff', are exactly as real
in his plays as they were when he wrote them. just because many words
aren't used or aren't used in the same senses doesn't disqualify them
from language.
ah Patrick has been at the translating engines again. should've been
my first stop too. I've NEVER heard the word 'urpu', but I kind of
like it. I have no clue of what that word might have meant,
etymologically; and that's rare, because most finnish words (even old
ones) are traceable because of the way finnish creates compounds. but
the word I was looking for is in fact 'pajunkissa'; literally "cat of
the willow" or "willow-cat". but 'kissa' häs no slang or secondary
meaning in finnish, except maybe to refer to a beautiful woman
generally (Cf. "she's quite a cat!", perhaps?)
hehe. "kisu" is indeed a diminutive/spoken-language form of the word
for cat; just less 'puss puss' & more 'kitty kitty'. another form
especially children use to call cats is "kis kis" (yup: kiss kiss).
Andrew, "them mob" is interesting, sounds very creolian to me.
KS
On 27/09/2007, Joanna Boulter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> You are damn' right, Kasper, I am 3 times as old as you (so what?) -- but
> I
> don't see that because any word has been taken over by the younger
> generation in an extended meaning, the original meaning sould instantly be
> nullified. What bothered me was your statement that the 'dirty' meaning of
> pussy was its *real meaning. As presumably with the catkins usage, it's
> surely metaphorical, and I've have have thought far more common in
> American
> English than British, to judge from my reading.
>
> The really interesting question this is all skirting around is what counts
> as 'real' meaning, when so many words are shifting in application,
> depending
> at least in part upon who's applying them. I mean, should we bear root
> meanings in mind, or the one(s) Shakespeare used, or polite usage a
> generation ago, or current slang? I would like to have all of these open
> to
> me.
>
> joanna
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kasper salonen" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 6:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Snap, 26 September 07 : Rite of Spring
>
>
> printed proof, certainly not. and I doubt whether even corpora would
> reveal my take to be true. but it's my intuition as a native language
> user, and as a representative of a younger generation than I'd assume
> your 'control group' comes from. :) in the case of the catkin, I can
> understand if the word is still in frequent use because it's a name of
> a plant or the part of a plant, I believe that biological names are
> slower to fade out because so many are rooted in colloquial & regional
> variants that are specialised in a way.
>
> ask anyone under 25 what the first thing is that comes ot their heads
> when you say the word 'pussy'. many would definitely say 'pussycat',
> but I think a lot of language users would feel that the description
> you gave of a catkin, 'very soft and silky', can be used for something
> only slightly more controversial.
>
> I'll ruminate on the finnish word, get back to you :)
>
> KS
>
> On 27/09/2007, Joanna Boulter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Not wanting to harp on here, but I know many, many people who use the
> > word
> > pussy to refer to cats and catkins, in fact far more than use it in this
> > other sense. I very much doubt that the word has become, as you say,
> > 'out
> > of
> > date', and I would certainly take issue with you or anyone who said that
> > 'the word's real reference and context' was the female genitalia. Can
> > you
> > cite actual printed proof of this? If so, I'd be glad to know of it.
> >
> > joanna
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "kasper salonen" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: Snap, 26 September 07 : Rite of Spring
> >
> >
> > yes, don't know why I said tree instead of catkin. I can't believe I
> > don't remember what it's called in finnish, but I've picked them on
> > many an easter too.
> >
> > and joanna, I think it's only positive that 'pussy' can only be used
> > in a dirty context now -- to use it any other way (e.g. in
> > 'pussywillow' or to refer to a cat) would just highlight how out of
> > date the word has become, and draw attention away from the word's real
> > reference & context.
> >
> > KS
> >
> > On 26/09/2007, Joanna Boulter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > No, no, Kasper, it's what the catkins are called -- pussy-willows,
> > > pussy-palms. The catkins look like a cat's folded paw, very soft and
> > > silky.
> > > I used to pick stems of it with my grandmother as a very small child
> > > (help!
> > > *how long ago?) to decorate the church for Palm Sunday, and I can't
> > > have
> > > been the only one of us who used to do this.
> > >
> > > joanna
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "kasper salonen" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 8:02 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Snap, 26 September 07 : Rite of Spring
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm with P on this one, that word is so distracting. even though
> > > that's the tree's name, I'd be more careful than this about using the
> > > word. someone stoned enough might get the image of a tree with vaginas
> > > hanging off it like apples!!
> > >
> > > the poem is quaint, & nice, & plain. pretty.
> > >
> > > KS
> > >
> > > On 26/09/2007, Max Richards <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > Rite of Spring
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At a small bridge in the Warrandyte road
> > > > the creek in a culvert passes under
> > > > on its way to the Yarra,
> > > >
> > > > Andersons Creek no less,
> > > > where gold was found just before
> > > > the great Ballarat gold rush.
> > > >
> > > > Warrandyte¹s rush was lesser.
> > > > Now as they say, there¹s just
> > > > the annual gold of the wattles.
> > > >
> > > > That¹s early spring, September,
> > > > when I always watch as well
> > > > for the rebirth of the willows,
> > > >
> > > > roadside, creekside, riverside,
> > > > freshest green on the Weeping ones,
> > > > silver velvet catkins on the Pussies.*
> > > >
> > > > Great to get there in time with secateurs
> > > > and carry home long fronds for the house,
> > > > but easy to be too late, and find
> > > >
> > > > the pussies opened, yellow with their pollen,
> > > > less fitted for a long spell in a tall vase.
> > > > But surprise: this week I made it,
> > > >
> > > > my eye caught by fresh willows
> > > > not far from home, in Templestowe
> > > > where another modest creek seeks the Yarra.
> > > >
> > > > Wife and dog wait in the car, I tiptoe
> > > > through lank grass, lean over a wire fence,
> > > > and snip enough fronds to make an armful,
> > > >
> > > > now a strong display at home.
> > > > Where folk look, and guess, wrongly,
> > > > as if no-one any more knows pussy willow.
> > > >
> > > > 26 September 2007
> > > >
> > > > Max Richards
> > > > Doncaster, Victoria
> > > >
> > > > *From a website:
> > > > Pussy willows are dioecious.
> > > > There are male pussy willow trees and female pussy willow trees.
> > > > The buds, or catkins, on the male pussy willow trees look different
> > > > from
> > > > those on the females.
> > > > The male catkins are showier, and it is the branches of the male
> > > > trees
> > > > that
> > > > we seek for their "pussy willows."
> > > > The catkins of males yield numerous tiny staminate flowers later in
> > > > spring.
> > > > From the decorator's perspective, it is at this point that the
> > > > bouquet
> > > > has
> > > > "gone by."
> > > > Likewise, the female catkins will bear pistillate flowers.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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