Not really a response to Peter, but related -- for all things etymological
(in case anyone hasn't come on this):
http://www.indo-european.nl/index2.html
"The IEED-project:
The IEED project is supervised by Alexander Lubotsky and Robert Beekes. The
aim of the project is threefold:
to compile etymological databases containing the inherited vocabulary of
various Indo-European branches and to publish them on the Internet;
to create an Indo-European etymological database on the Internet;
to compile a new Indo-European etymological dictionary, which will replace
Julius Pokorny's Indogermanisches etymologisches Wörterbuch (Bern: Francke,
1959). "
Da Rodent
*****************************
Peter Cudmore said:
Attempted this earlier, in response to Robin's last, and it was rejected by
the server, so let's try again:
I think Mark's instincts are good. One worry about the OED's pronouncements
about ancestral connections is that they are not dated, unlike the
etymologies. So we know when a word was first used, but not when the
dictionary's interpretation of it was formed. If the scepticism about links
with Scandinavian cognates is say 50 years old then more recent theory might
give cause for the scepticism to be revised. It can't all be bang up to
date.
P
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Poetryetc: poetry and poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Mark Weiss
> Sent: 01 September 2007 17:22
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Dust Bunnits
>
> That's Robin's conversion--don't know if it's
> lalland or just his fertile imagination or baby talk.
>
> Anyway, to be slightly more coherent than I was
> at three in the a.m., what I was suggesting is
> that if one went back to protogermanic, that
> mythical beast, one might find a word meaning to
> droop or slide that gradually attracted other,
> pejorative meanings and in some places slid down
> the social scale and acquired gender, the
> pejoratives associated with imagined or real
> attributes of the poor. Tried another way,
> neither the Duke nor Duchess of York, regardless
> of her hygienic or sexual habits, would likely be
> referred to as a slut in any sense circa 1400,
> but the scullery and the stable boy and the child
> that stayed at home in the peasant cottage down the lane might be.
>
> Mark
>
> At 11:34 AM 9/1/2007, you wrote:
> >Hi Mark, what's with "Bunnits," as opposed to
> >"Bunnies, " the form I grew up with?
> >
> >Thanks--Candice
> >
> >
> >
> >--- Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > Neither contact nor cognate forms, but a common
> > > ancestry.
> > >
> > >
> > > At 01:00 AM 9/1/2007, you wrote:
> > > >>Yup, the pejorative came first, before even the
> > > >>gender applied to, but when I look at the
> > > >>Germanic cognates
> > >
> > >>(http://books.google.com/books?id=Lx8B2tyuy1MC
> >
>
&pg=PA444&lpg=PA444&dq=slut+etymology&source=web&ots=c_Y7kYOIv4&sig=dModOQmf
b7
> 8SJs4rAOMa9GFMQgw)
> > >
> > > >>the sexual imputation appears in some languages
> > > >>but not in others. Meanings in the various
> > > >>languages: Icelandic, a heavy, loglike fellow;
> > > >>Swedish dialect, a slut, an idler; Norwegian,
> > > >>idler; Danish, slut; verb forms, Icel;andic and
> > > >>Norwegian to droop, allied to Danish loose,
> > > >>flabby. From slot-, stem of past participle of
> > > >>Norwegian sletta, to dangle, drift, idle about.
> > > >>Further allied to Dutch slodde, a slut, and the
> > > >>verb to slide.Cf. Irish slaodaire, a lazy person,
> > > from slaod, to slide.
> > > >
> > > >Um. Post-Skeat, we have Onions in the Oxford
> > > >Dictionary of English Etymology saying "contact
> > > >with Continental words similarly used and having
> > > >the same cons[onantal] framework SL..T, cannot
> > > >be proved" and the OED: " Forms having some
> > > >resemblance in sound and sense also occur in the
> > > >Scand. languages, as Da. slatte (? from LG.),
> > > >Norw. slott, Sw. dial. slåta, but connexion is very
> > > doubtful.]"
> > > >
> > > >-- which would suggest parallel or convergent
> > > >evolution rather than cognate forms, if that's
> > > >what you're suggesting above. Assuming the word
> > > >doesn't come into use much before it's first
> > > >recorded, the end of the 14thC is a bit late for
> > > >an unidentified borrowing from another
> > > >continental language. By then, when words are
> > > >borrowed [I think], they tend initially to look
> > > >very much like their form in the language they
> > > >are borrowed from. (Which contention would be a
> > > >bit stronger if I could think of an example.)
> > > >
> > > >I'm drawn towards the idea that "slut" comes in
> > > >because there's a strong phonaesthetic framework
> > > >around the general semantic area of glub and
> > > >grot, similar words just begging to be added
> > > >to. I haven't checked the date origins of the
> > > following, but consider:
> > > >
> > > > slut / slattern / sloven
> > > >
> > > > slug / (slow) / sloth
> > > >
> > > > sot
> > > >
> > > > slubber / slobber
> > > >
> > > >-- given that weight of phonaesthetic
> > > >negativity, sluts virtually have to be sluttish,
> > > nah?
> > > >
> > > >>I'm assuming that the various idle, slovenly
> > > >>meanings are earlier, and that by a process of
> > > >>convergence the sexual and the social accreted to
> > > the word.
> > > >
> > > >I'm inclined to agree, but the 50 year range in
> > > >the OED is a narrow one, within the margin of
> > > >error of when the word appears vs. when it's
> > > >first recorded in print. Also, I simply picked
> > > >up the definitions the OED gives without
> > > >checking them against the citations themselves
> > > >-- too much trouble at this time of night --
> > > >which is sloppy of me, given past
> > > >experience. But LEME did seem to concur --
> > > >Florio is more colourful (as ever) in his range
> > > >of synonyms for the word, but he's not untypical
> > > >of all the writers who "define" it between
> > > 1550-1700.
> > > >
> > > >>Seems to me too reasonable to be a
> > > >>frseh-hatched folk etymology of my own, but I'm
> > > >>aware that the best available is far short of
> > > proof.
> > > >
> > > >Yup.
> > > >
> > > >Back to the Spital House. I'm beginning to get
> > > >to *like that bloody poem, which is worrying.
> > > >
> > > >Ulp ...
> > > >
> > > >Robin
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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