me too. i concur

steve



>From: Rachandspike <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The UK drawing research network mailing list              
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Life Drawing etc; Artists and Intellectuals  --- new DRN 
>developments shortly forthcoming
>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:22:26 +0100
>
>Aine, that is brilliant!!! Cheers very much. I’ve just set up my own …
>
>
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/spikeart/
>
>
>
>… couldn’t be easier. I’m guessing you’ll sort out the group one before
>long, thankyou thankyou thankyou and I’ll be keeping my eyes peeled for 
>your
>next  message about the pool.
>
>
>
>Slainte.
>
>
>
>Spike.
>
>From: The UK drawing research network mailing list
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Aine Scannell
>Sent: 10 September 2007 17:55
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Life Drawing etc; Artists and Intellectuals --- new DRN
>developments shortly forthcoming
>
>
>
>
>Hello to all of you currently discussing the pro and cons of
>intellectualising art practice versus the activity of drawing and or
>communicating with one another while making reference to images, etc, etc.
>
>As it so happens I ( Aine Scannell ) have been recently in contact with
>Steve Garner of the DRN about taking on the management of the Flickr
>database of artists images, of the DRN network.  I undertook this 
>initiative
>because I felt that there was an imbalance where image context was
>concerned.
>
>SO THE VERY THING,  WHICH YOU PEOPLE HAVE IN A SENSE,  BEEN WISHING FOR,  
>IS
>VERY SOON GOING TO BE MORE “DO-ABLE”
>
>I have the images here to load up to the brand new DRN Flickr website   and
>you will all be able to set up your own individual free Flickr accounts
>
>( which permits 200 images to be viewable  -  if you require to have any
>more than that -  you can choose to pay for / or not,  an account at approx
>£12 per year )
>
>and then be able to post your images to the pool and contribute to the
>discussions.  You will be able to post comments underneath the images and 
>to
>include urls as reference if you wish too.
>
>Here is the link if any of you wish to get started with setting up your own
>free folio on flickr.
>
>https://login.yahoo.com/config/login?.src=flickr&new=1&.pd=c%3DE0.GahOp2e4Mj
>kX.5l2HgAoLkpmyPvccpVM-&.intl=us&.logout=1&.direct=1&.done=https%3A%2F%2Flog
>in.yahoo.com%2Fconfig%2Fvalidate%3F.src%3Dflickr%26.pc%3D5134%26.pd%3Dc%253D
>E0.GahOp2e4MjkX.5l2HgAoLkpmyPvccpVM-%26.intl%3Dus%26.done%3Dhttp%253A%252F%2
>52Fwww.flickr.com%252Fsignin%252Fyahoo%252F
>-- part of that process involves getting a yahoo account but it is all 
>there
>on the page so it shouldn’t take you long.
>
>I have various ideas for how this might evolve/develop but for the present 
>I
>shall sign out.  You will be informed as soon as the site is up.
>
>Bear in mind that I am doing this ‘off my own back’ as it were,  and I have
>various other commitments so please be patient.
>
>Looking forward to seeing and hearing more from all of you.
>
>Best wishes
>
>Aine ( pronounced ON YAH )
>
>ps here is a link to my blog
>
>http://ainescannell.blogspot.com/index.html
>
>Do any of you have a blog ?
>
>Please do post it to the group so that we can drop by have a look and say
>hello.
>
>   _____
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 10/9/07 17:06, "Michael Bray" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>Hello,
>
>   I haven’t been drawing for nearly as long (only 20 years), but I love 
>the
>concept of illustrated discussions.  Would it be possible to make a blog
>site that would have images to assist this conversation?  Perhaps the
>Drawing Network could add the possibility of adding images to the emails.  
>I
>enjoy the reading, but feel there is a dryness with images.  Who would be
>the one to address this issue to?
>   Personally, after all the discussion is over, I go back to the advice 
>from
>Donatello “Draw, draw, draw”.
>
>Has the image I’ve attached made it through to anyone?
>
>M
>
>
>On 9/10/07 6:50 PM, "JOHN PUMFREY" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>Hello, all.
>
>This is my first apearance in the e-mail correspondence (and possibly
>last!).
>I have been drawing for 60 years - on an almost daily basis. I also love to
>intellectualise. Indeed (although no academic or professional teacher) I
>dare to give talks entitled "Avant Garde Art since Aristotle", 
>"Architecture
>as Frozen Music" and "The Zen of Sketching". But always illustrated and 
>when
>I run workshops I demonstrate. Indeed, like all artists (or so I thought) I
>cannot think without drawing - so, now that we all have broadband, why
>doesn't this group circulate drawings rather than/as well as verbiage. Each
>communication should surely appear more like Leonardo's notebooks than a
>Psychology student's essay.
>
>yours, very frustrated (grumpy and old),
>John Pumfrey
>ex Kingston School Of Art (mid-fifties!)
>
>
>Alan McGowan wrote:
>
>
>Hi All
>
>There does seem to be a sense coming through of an
>opposition between artistic practice and intellectual
>analysis. I think there are two points here.
>
>Firstly that the experience of the art education
>journey in historical terms (from workshops,
>academies, ateliers, colleges/ polytechnics and into
>universities) is not a comfortable one and that many
>people feel that much has been lost on the way. It is
>very possible that the priorities and values of
>universities are not consistent with those of artists
>(who for instance may be, possibly must be, intimately
>engaged with sensual and emotional considerations
>rather than rational ones). This “ill-fit” can reveal
>itself in many disgruntled issues ranging from
>funding, reasearch status and
>“over-intellectualisation” to room provision and life
>drawing facilities.
>
>The other point is related though I think not quite
>the same as the one Margaret makes which is to do with
>the lack of publishing /analysis of the subject (life
>drawing). I agree that we suffer from a lack of
>intellectual discourse both in terms of our academic
>standing and (more crucially from my point of view) in
>the depth of understanding of our field which it would
>give to students and practitioners. Put simply my
>experience of life drawing is that it is perceived in
>a shallow way. It’s complexities and potentials lie
>“hidden” below the surface; while this is the case
>students lack the inspiration to pursue it to a deeper
>level; it loses it’s drive and the form itself is in
>danger. Even the vocabulary associated with drawing is
>being eclipsed. I can take a group of students who
>have supposedly been studying life drawing for two
>years and confidently predict that most will not be
>familiar with terms like negative space, gesture,
>contour, centre of gravity, contra-posto or have a
>good grasp of tonal values. These terms though
>practical are not opposed to intellectual rigour but
>in my view welded to it in the process of picture
>making.
>
>The current state of publishing in the field is very
>limited, as Margaret Mayhew says “believe me - i've
>looked at everything I could find in a *lot* of
>libraries (and a few languages) and I think I can
>safely claim that there is not a lot of contemporary
>critical intellectual engagement with what life
>drawing is.”
>
>What there is is a lot of “how to..” craft based books
>and a small amount of academic “intellectual”
>analysis. I think the point here is not to criticise
>the intellectuals for intellectualising but to
>encourage more critical engagement accross the whole
>spectrum. Some intellectual discourse will by it’s
>nature be rarified, “difficult” and practically
>impossible for a non-academic to grapple with. It will
>venture through history, psychology and philosophy and
>use big words I don’t understand. That’s OK. It all
>adds to the richness of the subject (remember that
>intellectuals also admire artists’ different means of
>expression otherwise they wouldn’t study us!).
>
>Alan McGowan
>Edinburgh College of Art
>www.alanmcgowan.com  <http://www.alanmcgowan.com>
><http://www.alanmcgowan.com>
>
>
>--- Tom McGuirk <[log in to unmask]>  <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
><mailto:[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>Hi All
>
>I can also recommend Anne Bermingham's book the full
>title is "Learning to Draw: Studies in the Cultural
>History of a Polite and Useful Art (2000) New Haven
>& London, Yale University Press.  Having written a
>PhD. thesis myself on the broader more general topic
>of
>the decline in the teaching of descriptive drawing
>in Fine Art education, I have been following the
>discussion with much interest and a little amusement
>as so often happens witnessing an argument among
>friends.  I completely agree with  Margaret that "If
>there
>is no critical intellectual discourse about life
>drawing then it makes it a very difficult practice
>to defend in terms of research and higher education
>funding".  I think it is great that she uses her
>evident skills to champion the practice. She
>describes the de facto
>situation and from a polemical point of view
>Margaret is right.  Historically it is however
>precisely because Fine Art Education has abandoned
>many of its core traditions and traditional
>independence in order to come under the University
>umbrella that it finds itself
>having to "defend itself" and its traditions in such
>terms, terms which are not always of its own
>choosing and finds itself having to squeeze into the
>often ill-fitting garment of "Research".  Such it
>seems is the price of Academic respectability and of
>course funding
>(who pays the piper calls the tune).  This can turn
>out to be a very high price indeed when those
>outside the discipline impose their own sometimes
>inappropriate paradigms. In historical terms we find
>in this an echo of the same polemics and power
>struggle which
>accompanied the founding of the first Florentine
>academy so well described in an equally
>recommendable book Carl Goldstein's (1996) "Teaching
>Art: Academies and Schools from Vasari to Albers"
>Cambridge University Press.
>
>Sincerely
>
>Tom McGuirk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Pauline Ridley" <[log in to unmask]>  <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Life Drawing etc
>Date:         Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:52:19 +0100
>
>
>Not sure if anyone has yet mentioned Anne
>
>
>
>
>Berminghams wonderful book
>
>
>
>
>'Learning to Draw' about 18th and 19th century
>
>
>
>
>drawing practices
>
>
>
>
>(amateur and professional)in England - I don't
>
>
>
>
>have it to hand but it
>
>
>
>
>should include details of drawing manuals that
>
>
>
>
>some people wanted.
>
>
>
>
>Correspondents on this strand might also be
>
>
>
>
>interested in the
>
>
>
>
>experiences of tutors and students on Access to
>
>
>
>
>Art - an art course for
>
>
>
>
>adults with learning difficulties - when
>
>
>
>
>introducing life drawing for
>
>
>
>
>the first time. There's a brief account in a
>
>
>
>
>report I co-wrote with the
>
>
>
>
>course tutor Alice Fox - available at
>
>
>
>
>
>http://www.brighton.ac.uk/cupp/projects/a2a_home.htm
>
>
>
>
>Key issues were the fact that many adults with
>
>
>
>
>severe learning
>
>
>
>
>disabilities may have had little or no sexual
>
>
>
>
>education or experience of
>
>
>
>
>sexual relationships or even sight of other people
>
>
>
>
>naked, which can then
>
>
>
>
>result in inappropriate behaviour in class, so it
>
>
>
>
>was necessary to do
>
>
>
>
>quite a lot of preliminary work first. We also
>
>
>
>
>found that looking at a
>
>
>
>
>non-disabled naked woman for more than a quick
>
>
>
>
>glance was extremely
>
>
>
>
>challenging for the group.  On the whole people
>
>
>
>
>with learning
>
>
>
>
>disabilities are more used to being looked at and
>
>
>
>
>scrutinised by both
>
>
>
>
>professionals and the general public, rather than
>
>
>
>
>themselves looking at
>
>
>
>
>other people.  Denied the 'power of the gaze' they
>
>
>
>
>may find eye contact
>
>
>
>
>difficult and need support and training in looking
>
>
>
>
>at other people.  The
>
>
>
>
>tutors therefore slowed the session right down and
>
>
>
>
>did a few looking
>
>
>
>
>exercises, with individuals focussing on
>
>
>
>
>particular parts of the body.
>
>
>
>
>By the end of the session some very beautiful
>
>
>
>
>drawings had been made.
>
>
>
>
>Six of the students enjoyed it, although two said
>
>
>
>
>it was "rude" and
>
>
>
>
>didn't want to do it again.  The life model said
>
>
>
>
>it had been "a
>
>
>
>
>refreshing and interesting experience" and
>
>
>
>
>requested to be involved
>
>
>
>
>again.  Because of these experiences and insights,
>
>
>
>
>there has since been
>
>
>
>
>a greater focus on observational drawing on the
>
>
>
>
>course and development
>
>
>
>
>of different ways to help the students exercise
>
>
>
>
>their looking skills,
>
>
>
>
>for instance through cross-sections and different
>
>
>
>
>angles, through
>
>
>
>
>viewfinders, taking Polaroid photos and using
>
>
>
>
>digital video.
>
>
>
>
>---------------
>Pauline Ridley
>Learning Area Co-ordinator (Visual Practices)
>Learnhigher CETL
>Centre for Learning and Teaching
>Room 113, Mayfield House, Falmer
>University of Brighton
>Brighton BN1 9PH
>01273-643406
>Email [log in to unmask]
>Visit the CLT website at
>
>
>
>
>http://staffcentral.brighton.ac.uk/clt
>
>
>
>
>Visual Practices website
>
>
>
>
>http://staffcentral.brighton.ac.uk/learnhigher
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: The UK drawing research network mailing list
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
>
>
>
>
>Of Margaret Mayhew
>
>
>
>
>Sent: 06 September 2007 06:28
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Drawing and Anatomy
>
>
>Dear Vernon and all
>
>It doesn't surprise me at ALL that British drawing
>
>
>
>
>manuals in the 19th
>
>
>
>
>century were so anxious about the purpose of
>
>
>
>
>anatomy study in life
>
>
>
>
>drawing
>- it *was* a REALLY problematic issue for lots of
>
>
>
>
>reasons.(Roberta
>
>
>
>
>McGRath wrote a great book on this btw...)
>
>William Hunter's dissections upset quite a lot of
>
>
>
>
>people - especially
>
>
>
>
>John Ruskin - so it is a funny irony that the
>
>
>
>
>Ruskin now has the best
>
>
>
>
>dissectionist artist in the UK (and probably the
>
>
>
>
>world) - actually Dr.
>
>
>
>
>Sarah Simblett would be a very good person for you
>
>
>
>
>to contact - I'm
>
>
>
>
>assuming you've read her book too btw.
>
>If you want to investigate the whole 'is it
>
>
>
>
>necessary' issue - then
>
>
>
>
>France is quite interesting in this regard - the
>
>
>
>
>link between drawing
>
>
>
>
>and medical science became diverted in the late
>
>
>
>
>19th century into the
>
>
>
>
>study of physical maladies and moved in the 20th
>
>
>
>
>century - quite
>
>
>
>
>specifically from the study of internal anatomy to
>
>
>
>
>the study of
>
>
>
>
>morphology - or the appearance of forms on the
>
>
>
>
>surface of the body - and
>
>
>
>
>what could be interpreted from observation.
>
>The 20th century lay huge stress on observation as
>
>
>
>
>an 'honest' way of
>
>
>
>
>seeing - and seeing through seeing rather than
>
>
>
>
>through knowing... though
>
>
>
>
>this has also had its problems.
>
>btw: I'd love the references for the two manuals
>
>
>
>
>you were referring to,
>
>
>
>
>if possible.
>
>cheers
>Margaret Mayhew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>This message was sent using IMP, the Internet
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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