Hi Rafe

I have no special problem with what you say below.
But I think that certain aspects of capitalism over values
growth whereas greater efficiency can be used to simply
maintain the size of the economy and reduce the amount of
paid work required. Such a limitation on growth may allow
us to pull back on growing resource consumption and could allow
more unpaid work that is resource recycling and also building up
activities that suppport education and the social fabric. I think
that there may be some ways to move beyind the motivational
structures of current capitalism and markets and advertising, etc,
to create something more socially co-operative, less about
increased growth and consumption and creating more time for
uppaid and social work. Is this possible?

Regards
David

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rafe CHAMPION" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: capitalism etc was Nick Maxwell and Pragmatism


> David, to attempt to characterise western society in a few words is to
> fall into a number of errors of method which create endless problems in
> coming to grips with theoretical and practical issues.
>
> Sixty years after Popper wrote The Open Society and its Enemies it
> should not be necessary to rehearse these things but the social sciences
> are still riddled with the errors of holism and essentialism (among
> other things) so it still has to be done.
>
> Holism in this context is the view that you have said something useful
> when you say that society is largely ".........".
>
> Capitalism means so many different things to different people that i
> prefer to talk in terms of open and closed markets, or markets and the
> regulation of markets. If you are talking about a historic process that
> involved larger and larger amounts of capital, with more and more of it
> controlled by private enterprise rather than the ruler or the state,
> then where do we go from there?
>
> I suppose you want to focus on some particular aspects of the system
> that you call capitalism but I don't know which ones you want to isolate
> for praise or blame.
>
> I am concerned about the amount of state interference and regulation of
> markets that produces perverse outcomes, especially in the poor parts of
> the world that suffer from a lack of so many things that have promoted
> freedom and prosperity in the west. But of course in the west, big
> government interference is still very popular with most political
> parties.
>
> Consumption is just one of the things that we have to do to live and
> again when you talk of consumerism you mean some aspects of consumption
> that are distasteful or dangerous. Being a mean and puritanical person
> in the way of consumption I probably agree with some of your misgivings
> about waste but the question is  to find a way to reduce waste that does
> not do more harm than good.
>
> Moving on to materialism, there are good and bad aspects of that, for
> example secular humanists think it helps to abandon superstitions in
> favour of naturalistic/meterialistic accounts of the world we live in. I
> suppose you are concerned about reductionist views that don't capture
> the complexity of reality, or crude  materialism in social and cultural
> affairs that is blind to deep human needs, the heights of cultural
> achievement and the realm of the spirit.
>
> On the spirit, in contrast with my miserly approach to consumption I am
> quite profligate in metaphysical realism where I am prepared to
> contemplate several worlds, so that spiritual development can be pursued
> in a secular manner by way of second and third worlds of feeling and
> ideas.
>
> There is more to be said but that is a start!
>
> Thanks for putting the questions!!
>
> Rafe
>
>>>> [log in to unmask] 3/07/2007 2:12 am >>>
> Hi Rafe
>
> Perhaps you will answer the question I asked first?
>
> Would you characterise western society as not being largely capitalist,
> consumerist and materialist?
>
> Regards
> David Morey
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned for the NSW Department of Health by the
> MessageLabs Email Security System. The Department regularly monitors
> emails and attachments to ensure compliance with its Electronic
> Messaging Policy.
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> Disclaimer: This message is intended for the addressee named and may
> contain confidential information. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please delete it and notify the sender. Views
> expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
> and are not necessarily the views of NSW Health.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned for the NSW Department of Health by the 
> MessageLabs Email Security System. The Department regularly monitors 
> emails and attachments to ensure compliance with its Electronic Messaging 
> Policy.
> _____________________________________________________________________
>