This from the Online Etymological Dictionary: 
"sincerity. 1546, from M.Fr. sincérité (1519), 
from L. sinceritatem (nom. sinceritas), from 
sincerus "sound, pure, whole," perhaps originally 
"of one growth" (i.e. "not hybrid, unmixed"), 
from sem-, sin- "one" + root of crescere "to 
grow" (see 
<http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=crescent>crescent). 
Ground sense is of "that which is not falsified."

I spoke of "the Wordsworth in the poems." I am 
interested in (value) poets because of the poems 
they wrote, on the assumption that the poems 
didn't spring up like mushrooms. Or as you put it, "someone made it."

It might be good to remember that Wilde, in 
addition to a lot of work that remains 
convincing, wrote in a fit of deep "sincerity" 
the bathetic "Ballad of Reading Gaol" and the (to 
my mind) barely tolerable fairy tales.

Mark


At 12:05 AM 6/6/2007, you wrote:
>I don't value poems because of the poets who wrote them (except in very rare
>personal instances). When I read and am moved to admire a poem, I admire the
>poem. I might, in shorthand, say something like "I love Yourcenar," but of
>course I don't love Yourcenar, I've never met her and never will; what I
>mean is that I love her work. I don't assume that because Rilke (or Pound or
>Brecht or whoever) wrote poems I admire very much that he was himself a
>living exegesis of his poetry. When a writer claims sincerity, that, it
>seems to me, is what he or she is claiming.
>
>Marti, in your quote, isn't speaking of sincerity, but honesty. Honesty in
>art is very often the opposite of sincerity. And integrity in art is
>absolutely bound up with art's artifice, the acknowledgement of the material
>fact that someone _made_ it. As Handke said, a writer's ethics are in his
>style. Wilde also said something like that. One of the reasons I like Wilde
>so much is that he understood par excellence exactly how seriously to take
>art: very seriously indeed. It's far too serious for such vanities as
>mistaking the author for the poem.
>
>On 6/6/07, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>That's quite a leap, Alison.
>>
>>Let's try to divide the term into two parts, sincerity and
>>"sincerity." When Wordsworth wasn't being "sincere," as he too often
>>was, he was sincere, or at least the Wordsworth in the poems, which
>>is the only one whose internal life we can even pretend to have
>>access to, was. Poems are artifices, but we often value them not
>>because of the cleverness of their artifice but because we believe in
>>their integrity, and by extension the maker's.
>>
>>There's also the matter that the terms we employ change meaning.
>>Marti writing in the 1890s in Spanish is in more ways than one on a
>>different continent than Oscar Wilde. At least as much so the
>>pre-1809 Wordsworth. When we read them we can chuckle, or we can
>>translate.
>>
>>And as I think it was Janet who pointed out, "I" is just a word, even
>>if sometimes some of us make bigger claims for it.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>At 11:08 PM 6/5/2007, you wrote:
>> >I'm no nihilist. Nor am I a smirker.
>> >
>> >On 6/6/07, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>Everything in a poem is a part of the artifice of the poem, tho one
>> >>doesn't always realize that until after the fact. The mystery is that
>> >>we trust any language at all. But we do, at least on occasion.
>> >>
>> >>This discussion could easily head towards nihilism or a smirk.
>> >>
>> >>Mark
>> >>
>> >>At 10:29 PM 6/5/2007, you wrote:
>> >> >I tend to distrust first-person claims to be
>> >> >sincere/honest. It's a move like any other, it seems
>> >> >to me, part of the artifice of the poem.
>> >> >
>> >> >Candice
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >--- Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > And then there's Jose Marti: "Yo soy un hombre
>> >> > > sincero/ de donde
>> >> > > crece las palmas." "I am an honest man/ from the
>> >> > > land of palm
>> >> > > trees."  Good to remember the meaning of the word
>> >> > > before it became
>> >> > > apparently for some of us too much protestation.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Mark
>> >> > >
>> >> > > At 09:36 PM 6/5/2007, you wrote:
>> >> > > > > Here's that Wilde quote (from The Critic as
>> >> > > Artist):
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a
>> >> > > great deal of it is
>> >> > > > > absolutely fatal.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >Ah.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >I wonder what he meant by "fatal".
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >Critics don't seem to like sincerity. It makes them
>> >> > > uncomfortable.
>> >> > > >I wonder whether readers might be different.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >I don't see how anyone can really tell whether an
>> >> > > artist
>> >> > > >is sincere, anyway.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >Janet
>> >> > >
>> >> > >-------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > > >Janet Jackson <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> > > >Poems at Proximity: www dot proximity dot webhop
>> >> > > dot net
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >Our humanity is diminished when we have no mission
>> >> > > >bigger than ourselves.
>> >> > > >                                               Bono
>> >> > >
>> >> > >-------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> >__________________________________________________________________
>> >> __________________Ready
>> >> >for the edge of your seat?
>> >> >Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
>> >> >http://tv.yahoo.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Editor, Masthead:  http://www.masthead.net.au
>> >Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
>> >Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com
>
>
>
>--
>Editor, Masthead:  http://www.masthead.net.au
>Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
>Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com