> Stephen, it is true that a couple of posts arrived right after Alison left
> the list that were inappropriate. They came in before I issued my request to
> cool it. I regret that. Obviously, we have let everything on the subject
> stand & become part of the record. It is unfortunate that you see my motives
> as nefarious, but there is nothing I can do about that.
>
> As for talk of "war," Anny did use the word, posting as a list member, not
> as a list manager. It is not the word I would have used to describe the
> discussion. I will respond to the part of your second paragraph above that
> deals with poetics when I have a bit more time. Ir was an interesting
> discussion, though from what you have written you A) misunderstand my
> position & B) are imputing psychological states & aesthetic positions to me
> that I do not hold. This of course may be entirely my fault for not
> articulating them with sufficient clarity. Or you may be misunderstanding me
> for your own purposes.
I was not ascribing an aesthetic position to you; I believe I was just
defining what I sensed was the burning core of a good, interesting debate -
the sides of which obviously had people getting strident, etc., Alison's
departure, etc.
I just do not like of any of getting shut down for ostensibly one reason and
not another. I will let that "I" be my real I/Eye.
Stephen V
http://stephenvincent.net/blog/
>
> jd
>
> On 6/10/07, Stephen Vincent <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Joe and Annie:
>>
>> Look, without naming names, some people took the opportunity to trash
>> Alison
>> after she announced that she was leaving the list. I am not stupidly
>> suggesting a regurgitation of this or any other wounds that were either
>> needled or suffered in the process.
>>
>> I am calling for a little decency in acknowledging Alison's huge input
>> into
>> variously maintaining and supporting the vitality of many of the most
>> interesting discussions on this list - including the use of "I" in poetry,
>> theater and where have you. Relinquishing the claim on the authority of
>> the
>> "I" often provokes deeply disturbed responses in poets, especially when
>> young, and indeed older ones who have staked the value of the "I" as
>> inextricably involved in finding and declaring("sincerely") a fresh
>> identity, one independent of shackles - either personal or literary. I
>> found the intensity of the argument and discussion to be vital. The level
>> of
>> impatience and scorn, declarations of "war" between both points of view
>> was
>> inevitable. Nobody behaved real well (at times) and Alison, sadly, left
>> gracelessly. At least the issue got out in the open!
>>
>> But to pretend to that Alison's history on this listserv (even giving a
>> little farewell gratitude) should be relegated by Joe into b/c messages to
>> Joe strikes me as low-level Elizabethan.
>>
>> And, thanks Joe for the offer to organize the snaps; my time and interest
>> in
>> the weekly "snap" has slipped away - I remain grateful to Alison and
>> Randolph Healy for keeping alive a context that helped incubate a lot of
>> new
>> work for me and the exposure of the work of others active on this list. I
>> think you will have to issue a general call for somebody with a fresh
>> interest.
>>
>> Stephen V
>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Thank you Joseph. I couldn't have answered better.
>>>
>>> On this list it has been a custom _never_ to talk of someone who left
>>> the list - or was sent away.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/10/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> Stephen, it is a long-standing though perhaps informal practice of
>> listservs
>>>> not to discuss people who cannot respond. Alison's own message to
>> Candice,
>>>> posted here, indicated that she found further discussion objectionable.
>> The
>>>> request to let the matter drop was made in consultation with the other
>> list
>>>> manager and it was not arbitrary, a characterization I strongly object
>> to.
>>>> Nor did I tell anyone to "shut up," either literally or in my tone. I
>>>> invited anyone who wanted to discuss this matter to do so off-list with
>> Anny
>>>> and myself. But, as I told Ken yesterday, let it all hang out. No posts
>> have
>>>> been deleted. The list managers were merely attempting to comply with
>> custom
>>>> and with Alison's explicit wishes as we understood them.
>>>>
>>>> If you would like to volunteer to put the snaps in chronological order,
>> I'm
>>>> sure everyone would consider it a commendable service to the list. I'd
>> be
>>>> delighted to arrange whatever permissions you need to access the
>> Jiscmail
>>>> server.
>>>>
>>>> Joseph Duemer
>>>> Co-Mgr. Poetryetc.
>>>>
>>>> On 6/10/07, Stephen Vincent <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have had my say on Alison's major significance to this list. & she
>>>>> indeed
>>>>> decided to leave for her own reasons, not of the 'management.'
>>>>>
>>>>> (I would add that there are few vital contributors that in the heat of
>>>>> whatever have not been flawed in our ripostes and been variously
>> called to
>>>>> task others to cool off, and I suspect Alison would acknowledge that
>> she
>>>>> pulled some real, occasionally offensive bloopers.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Alison, as I have said, was important to the conversation/debate,
>> etc. to
>>>>> many of us who have been here for time several years. She also,
>> indeed,
>>>>> put
>>>>> in a great deal of labor on the list (like keeping the Snaps in
>>>>> chronological, archival order - something that seems to have gone up
>> in
>>>>> smoke now?).
>>>>>
>>>>> That is why I find it real disturbing that Joe arbitrarily decides
>> that no
>>>>> one should discuss Alison's contributions (our new ghost in the
>>>>> cyber-cosmic
>>>>> closet?). I know Chairmen do this in various political and academic
>>>>> settings, but in this context I am sure many of us don't like to be
>> told
>>>>> to
>>>>> shut up on things that are important to us.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen V
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I have no problem in inviting them back sometime....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's up to them, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> things go awry sometimes on lists like this, tone, tone tone....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do want the list to continue, as I enjoy the conversation, even
>> when
>>>>>> it gets a bit out of hand, but I also know that you & Joe took on the
>>>>>> running when others of us couldn't or didn't anyway, & so I thank you
>>>>>> for that & hope you'll keep doing so even through the occasional
>> little
>>>>>> storm....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doug
>>>>>> On 9-Jun-07, at 9:57 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well Peter,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bircumshaw was more off than on the present list, as far as I can
>>>>>>> remember. And Yes, you are right the last time he was sent away
>>>>>>> because he said something he did not have to say to Lawrence, what
>>>>>>> about the previous times?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And Rebecca Seiferle? And Henry Gould? And Kent Johnson? Erminia
>>>>>>> Passannanti? There were some incredible poets on this list, where
>> are
>>>>>>> they now?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Anny
>>>>>> Douglas Barbour
>>>>>> 11655 - 72 Avenue NW
>>>>>> Edmonton Ab T6G 0B9
>>>>>> (780) 436 3320
>>>>>> http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Latest book: Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
>>>>>> http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Art has to be forgotten: Beauty must be realized.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Piet Mondrian
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Joseph Duemer
>>>> Professor of Humanities
>>>> Clarkson University
>>>> [sharpsand.net]
>>>>
>>
>
>
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