I stay with my position. Since the fact of having to prove that artists are
a bunch of liars has become a crusade on this list, I will then make of my
point a crusade. Who is with me on the white horses to show the other bunch
of people that sincerity is most important in the creation of any work of
art?
The counterpart wants Allison Croggon, Kaspar and Candice and Stephen allied
together, at least this is what I am getting from Croggon's last message.
Since this point was stated by Croggon and the others did not comment, their
positions might not be that well defined.
As in any war, at least this is what the present discussion seems to me by
now (see the persistent : I am right you are wrong, I am right you are wrong
- repeated endless times and under an infinite variety of forms not avoiding
terms like : manipulation, crass embroidery playing cards and what the hell
- I also wish to underline that even if the insinuation was there it was not
targeted but being this ___a war___ it becomes natural that it is addressed
to the ___enemy__),
positions will change like pawns in a chessboard game. Therefore, let's see
the movements from now on.
I hate it when I have to deal with such undefined and stubborn forces that
need to show off what I do not know. This said, I do not think I will utter
any other comment on sincerity under the present thread. The horses are in
the stables and 'morrow they will be used for better tasks. I just needed to
show those who did not want to see what has been going on up to this moment.
Sincere, best whatever wishes.
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche
On 6/7/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Alison, thank you for your reply. Perhaps we are talking past each other,
> but I stand by my distrust of the rejection of sincerity. I think that a
> far
> greater fault is a knowing & arch irony all too common in many
> contemporary
> poetries that dresses itself up as a rejection of sincerity. I mean, of
> course I know what you mean by sincerity--the cloying, self-aggrandizing
> mode in which the poet says "I'm such an asshole--don't you love me?" It
> is
> one of the fictions of postmodernism, though, that a writer can escape the
> self. That's where the business about the "lyric I" comes in. I don't
> think
> that sincerity & "self-expression" are the same thing at all. I warn my
> students off self-expression right off when I teach writing classes.
> Perhaps
> what I have in mind is the Higher Sincerity, a sincerity of intention. I
> like Jonathan Mayhew's typology. (Jonathan is a Lorca scholar & poet. His
> blog <http://jonathanmayhew.blogspot.com/index.html> is well worth
> checking
> out.) I don't think he'll mind my quoting this bit from my blog:
>
> sincere sincerity (Robert Creeley)
> insincere sincerity (bad confessional poetry)
> sincere insincerity (Oscar Wilde)
> insincere insincerity (artistically dishonest use of fictionality)
>
> jd
>
>
> On 6/6/07, Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Joe
> >
> > I'm not sure you've understood me at all. I entered this conversation by
> > pointing out that the "lyric I" can be much more complex than merely the
> > singular reflection of a self expression, and that it has been redefined
> > by
> > many interesting women writers in ways that deeply question the
> > singularity
> > of a given self. So in arguing against sincerity in art, I'm hardly
> > chucking
> > out the "I". Sincerity can be just as appalling in the third person, as
> in
> > bad left wing plays that tell you all about everything you already know
> > (sincerely, of course) in order to flatter you into thinking you're a
> good
> > person for believing that the right things are wrong.
> >
> > Nor do I think that Robert Creeley or Frank O'Hara or Alice Notley are
> > "sincere" poets. Not in the least. O'Hara's joke about Personism surely
> > suggests something a little obliquely ironic there in relation to the
> > self.
> >
> > But if I continue, I'll just be repeating what I've already said. I'm
> with
> > Kaspar; the true being most feigning is I think a quote from Hamlet, and
> > even if something called "Mastering the Language of Literature" sounds a
> > little dubious, Shakespeare is probably a respectable guide in these
> > matters. And thanks Stephen for the little bit of Rimbaud, which is
> where
> > a
> > lot of this stuff begins.
> >
> > Candice, I like your comment about tactics. Some are more honest, or at
> > least less self-deceiving and crassly manipulative, than others, which
> is
> > I
> > guess really my point.
> >
> > All best
> >
> > A
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au
> > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
> > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Joseph Duemer
> Professor of Humanities
> Clarkson University
> [sharpsand.net]
>
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