Anny,
I reject your war metaphor and think it very
inappropriate to project it onto Alison, who is among
the most peaceable people on the list. If some of us
disagree with others, it's hardly a prelude to war.
Yet you sound very angry over what is basically an
intellectual argument. Please turn the heat down!
Respectfully,
Candice
--- Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> ???
>
> You have understood my posts very badly, Anny. But I
> am sure that you are
> being sincere.
>
> I am not interested in any war; there are quite
> enough of those around. Nor
> am I interested in drawing up "positions", rallying
> cries and suchlike. I do
> not like armour or other such rigid things. And I
> think it's rather
> egregious and simplistic to conclude that I am
> trying "to prove that artists
> are a bunch of liars". I was saying the opposite.
>
> All the best
>
> Alison
>
>
>
> On 6/7/07, Anny Ballardini
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > I stay with my position. Since the fact of having
> to prove that artists
> > are
> > a bunch of liars has become a crusade on this
> list, I will then make of my
> > point a crusade. Who is with me on the white
> horses to show the other
> > bunch
> > of people that sincerity is most important in the
> creation of any work of
> > art?
> >
> > The counterpart wants Allison Croggon, Kaspar and
> Candice and Stephen
> > allied
> > together, at least this is what I am getting from
> Croggon's last message.
> > Since this point was stated by Croggon and the
> others did not comment,
> > their
> > positions might not be that well defined.
> >
> > As in any war, at least this is what the present
> discussion seems to me by
> > now (see the persistent : I am right you are
> wrong, I am right you are
> > wrong
> > - repeated endless times and under an infinite
> variety of forms not
> > avoiding
> > terms like : manipulation, crass embroidery
> playing cards and what the
> > hell
> > - I also wish to underline that even if the
> insinuation was there it was
> > not
> > targeted but being this ___a war___ it becomes
> natural that it is
> > addressed
> > to the ___enemy__),
> > positions will change like pawns in a chessboard
> game. Therefore, let's
> > see
> > the movements from now on.
> >
> > I hate it when I have to deal with such undefined
> and stubborn forces that
> > need to show off what I do not know. This said, I
> do not think I will
> > utter
> > any other comment on sincerity under the present
> thread. The horses are in
> > the stables and 'morrow they will be used for
> better tasks. I just needed
> > to
> > show those who did not want to see what has been
> going on up to this
> > moment.
> >
> > Sincere, best whatever wishes.
> >
> > Anny Ballardini
> > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> >
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to
> give birth to a dancing
> > star!
> > Friedrich Nietzsche
> >
> >
> > On 6/7/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Alison, thank you for your reply. Perhaps we are
> talking past each
> > other,
> > > but I stand by my distrust of the rejection of
> sincerity. I think that a
> > > far
> > > greater fault is a knowing & arch irony all too
> common in many
> > > contemporary
> > > poetries that dresses itself up as a rejection
> of sincerity. I mean, of
> > > course I know what you mean by sincerity--the
> cloying, self-aggrandizing
> > > mode in which the poet says "I'm such an
> asshole--don't you love me?" It
> > > is
> > > one of the fictions of postmodernism, though,
> that a writer can escape
> > the
> > > self. That's where the business about the "lyric
> I" comes in. I don't
> > > think
> > > that sincerity & "self-expression" are the same
> thing at all. I warn my
> > > students off self-expression right off when I
> teach writing classes.
> > > Perhaps
> > > what I have in mind is the Higher Sincerity, a
> sincerity of intention. I
> > > like Jonathan Mayhew's typology. (Jonathan is a
> Lorca scholar & poet.
> > His
> > > blog
> <http://jonathanmayhew.blogspot.com/index.html> is
> well worth
> > > checking
> > > out.) I don't think he'll mind my quoting this
> bit from my blog:
> > >
> > > sincere sincerity (Robert Creeley)
> > > insincere sincerity (bad confessional poetry)
> > > sincere insincerity (Oscar Wilde)
> > > insincere insincerity (artistically dishonest
> use of fictionality)
> > >
> > > jd
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/6/07, Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Joe
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure you've understood me at all. I
> entered this conversation
> > by
> > > > pointing out that the "lyric I" can be much
> more complex than merely
> > the
> > > > singular reflection of a self expression, and
> that it has been
> > redefined
> > > > by
> > > > many interesting women writers in ways that
> deeply question the
> > > > singularity
> > > > of a given self. So in arguing against
> sincerity in art, I'm hardly
> > > > chucking
> > > > out the "I". Sincerity can be just as
> appalling in the third person,
> > as
> > > in
> > > > bad left wing plays that tell you all about
> everything you already
> > know
> > > > (sincerely, of course) in order to flatter you
> into thinking you're a
> > > good
> > > > person for believing that the right things are
> wrong.
> > > >
> > > > Nor do I think that Robert Creeley or Frank
> O'Hara or Alice Notley are
> > > > "sincere" poets. Not in the least. O'Hara's
> joke about Personism
> > surely
> > > > suggests something a little obliquely ironic
> there in relation to the
> > > > self.
> > > >
> > > > But if I continue, I'll just be repeating what
> I've already said. I'm
> > > with
> > > > Kaspar; the true being most feigning is I
> think a quote from Hamlet,
> > and
> > > > even if something called "Mastering the
> Language of Literature" sounds
> > a
> > > > little dubious, Shakespeare is probably a
> respectable guide in these
>
=== message truncated ===
____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
|