constructive is as constructive does; at first I only gave my first
impression, but if an author is told by a reader that they find
something of theirs obtuse, that in itself can be a help to said
author. they will know that somebody found the poem difficult to grasp
& enjoy, & may look at the piece with a newly critical eye.
it means I stopped working on it, yes; iy also means that I was not
given any incentive to WANT to work on it. I could analyse the poem in
a heartbeat in a number of ways; I just felt disinclined to because of
the way the poem felt to me.
there's no contradiction in saying something sounds kind of nice
(getting a general, surface reaction) but that I didn't get anything
out of it ('to get smth our of smth': to gain a point of view, to
experience a realisation, to feel reverberations).
of course I have no qualm with the way the poem was written. I read
Every Single poem as separate from any potential manner in which it
was created; I read the poem, period. not all the multitudes of
contexts & conceptions that always float around a piece. the poetry is
what matters, & I felt that it fell short with this piece. my opinion.
I took nothing out on the author. I didn't even address her
personally! I said I got nothing out of the POEM, I said the POEM made
no sense to me. ad hominem it is not.
the teenager bit was honestly without intended over/undertone. I've
had a lot of experience critiquing the work of teen writers, was I
wrong to say that I was reminded of my experience with that?
I don't care about collage poetry, i.e. I'm indifferent about it. no
need for defence. :)
KS
On 01/06/07, Bob Marcacci <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> whose skin needs toughening? your criticism is up for debate as much as
> anyone's poem might be... you spit a lot of game up in this piece, so you're
> bound to take a few hits, too...
>
> your original comments just weren't constructive...
>
> "this makes no sense to me" - this just says that you stopped working on
> it... any two things next to each other make some sense... your
> interpretation just shows a lack of creativity and effort... show me how it
> works... that's impressive!
>
> "sounds kind of nice but i get nothing out of it" - you're just
> contradicting yourself, as Hal said... and it's flip...
>
> in my assessment, you have more qualms with her process of making the poem,
> that the poetry is less valid than the other, muse-inspired type, and
> wrongly take it out on the author...
>
> your attempt to reiterate your remarks was much better... but then there's
> that teenager bit... honestly, is that really useful? or was that a subtle
> pun about your age between you and Tina that i missed?
>
> i think i'm defending collage poetry and not what you're mistakenly
> suggesting! although, the other's not a bad motto...
>
> anyhow, secret handshake, hugs, kisses and all that...
>
> --
> Bob Marcacci
>
> Many wealthy people are little more than janitors of their possessions.
> - Frank Lloyd Wright
>
>
>
> > From: kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]>
> > Reply-To: "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" <[log in to unmask]>
> > Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 11:11:04 +0300
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: edited cut-up
> >
> > haha. your snide indignation is amusing Bob. who was closer to the
> > teenager again?
> >
> > I figure that a poet, ANY poet, writing work of any kind & posting it
> > on a public list can do with comments that range from both the awed &
> > impressed to the indifferent or unimpressed. if all a writer got was
> > positive feedback (a scenario you seem to be defending with this 'if
> > you have nothing positive ot say don't say anything at all' retort)
> > they'd never know whether their work could be improved & would never
> > progress.
> >
> > try toughening your skin the tiniest bit Bob, or don't jump to the
> > side of recipients of critique who take less offense at an expression
> > of dislike than you.
> >
> > KS
> >
> > On 01/06/07, Bob Marcacci <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> You don't have to defend your process, Tina. If I die having written one
> >> beautifully sounding poem, they can bury me next to you.
> >>
> >> The comments weren't very impressive although, perhaps, Kasper is closer to
> >> teenagers than the rest of us, thus drawing his remarks on his recent
> >> history...
> >>
> >> If it doesn't do anything for you, Kasper, why give wordy evidence of it? If
> >> you're trying to bash Tina, take it backchannel...
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bob Marcacci
> >>
> >> Getting information off the Internet is like taking
> >> a drink from a fire hydrant.
> >> - Mitch Kapor
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: Tina Bass <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> Reply-To: "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:13:07 +0000
> >>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> Subject: Re: edited cut-up
> >>>
> >>> Kasper,
> >>>
> >>> I'll be honest here and say that I had no idea what I was doing the first
> >>> time that I cut up a magazine to make a poem (um all of about three months
> >>> ago now). I have a little bit more of an idea now what I think I might be
> >>> doing... !?
> >>>
> >>> I don't think you are right to say that it is poetry reminiscent of
> >>> teenagers. I hope/think that it is more childish than that. At the time of
> >>> creating I was very much desk-bound, swamped by boring, repetitive work, and
> >>> the cut-ups have been a way of indulging myself in something more physical.
> >>> I get to cut AND stick. It's marvellous to touch the letters rather than a
> >>> keyboard. I also happen to think that there is more to it than randomness
> >>> or childish indulgence. Most of the words are in common usage but would not
> >>> be my normal choice. Even if you don't like the poem, something may have
> >>> been lifted or jarred from my subconscious that could be useful in the
> >>> future. Maybe. It has a purpose and I take all of my writing very
> >>> seriously.
> >>>
> >>> After spending more than a year on this discussion board (beating my
> >>> previous record by at least 11 months) I am clear that 'making sense' is a
> >>> false idol. If my epitaph is 'made a few nice sounds' that will do nicely
> >>> thank you very much.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> and thanks to everyone else who commented.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Patrick - you beautiful man - I will take a look at what you have sent me
> >>> tomorrow. I need a good night's sleep to refresh from marking a zillion
> >>> exam papers and to get rid of the after-effects of a fairly cheap bottle of
> >>> plonk. Ye Gods! did I really drink all of it?
> >>>
> >>> Tina
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> [log in to unmask]
> >>> http://www.fatmandancing.co.uk
> >>> http://www.myspace.com/fat_man_dancing
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>> Reply-To: "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>> Subject: Re: edited cut-up
> >>>> Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 18:02:56 +0300
> >>>>
> >>>> hoorah for semantics. I didn't mean nice sounds (the sonics are quite
> >>>> unremarkable), I just liked the word/image combinations of the second
> >>>> stanza somewhat.
> >>>> it's just that sounding nice is rarely enough, even if it sounds
> >>>> REALLY nice, which this didn't. phrases like "casualties of elegant
> >>>> madness" annoy me (not to mention "lines of unlimited want") because
> >>>> they don't seem to refer to anything, or refer to something way
> >>>> abstract, and sound interesting on one hand but inane on the other. it
> >>>> reminds me of the type of poetry teenage writers tend to come up with.
> >>>>
> >>>> the cutting-up is the basis here, sure. the technique is alien to me
> >>>> as an idea (I like to come up with my own words; not to say that
> >>>> 'collage' poetry must necessarily be crap), maybe that has something
> >>>> to do with it.
> >>>>
> >>>> KS
> >>>>
> >>>> On 31/05/07, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>>>> Seems contradictory, KS. You got nice sounds
> >>>>> out of it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hal
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "I would horsewhip you if I had a horse."
> >>>>> --Groucho Marx
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Halvard Johnson
> >>>>> ================
> >>>>> [log in to unmask]
> >>>>> [log in to unmask]
> >>>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> >>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> >>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> >>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On May 31, 2007, at 1:11 AM, kasper salonen wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> this makes no sense to me. sounds kind of nice, but I get nothing
> >>>>>> out of it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> KS
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 31/05/07, Tina Bass <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>>>>>> I think I prefer it like this, without the original first line.
> >>>>>>> Comments
> >>>>>>> welcome. I'm quite tired. I may think differently tomorrow.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> lines of unlimited want cross
> >>>>>>> casualties of elegant madness
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> we watch for life as never before
> >>>>>>> work out distress in golden clover
> >>>>>>> treasure our remote-controlled triumph
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
> >>>>>>> http://www.fatmandancing.co.uk
> >>>>>>> http://www.myspace.com/fat_man_dancing
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
>
|