I took Anny's 'let's pick teams' as a playful extension of this debate.
Androo the Innocent
On 08/06/07, Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Thanks Candice.
>
> xA
>
> On 6/7/07, MC Ward <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Anny,
> >
> > I reject your war metaphor and think it very
> > inappropriate to project it onto Alison, who is among
> > the most peaceable people on the list. If some of us
> > disagree with others, it's hardly a prelude to war.
> > Yet you sound very angry over what is basically an
> > intellectual argument. Please turn the heat down!
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Candice
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > ???
> > >
> > > You have understood my posts very badly, Anny. But I
> > > am sure that you are
> > > being sincere.
> > >
> > > I am not interested in any war; there are quite
> > > enough of those around. Nor
> > > am I interested in drawing up "positions", rallying
> > > cries and suchlike. I do
> > > not like armour or other such rigid things. And I
> > > think it's rather
> > > egregious and simplistic to conclude that I am
> > > trying "to prove that artists
> > > are a bunch of liars". I was saying the opposite.
> > >
> > > All the best
> > >
> > > Alison
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/7/07, Anny Ballardini
> > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I stay with my position. Since the fact of having
> > > to prove that artists
> > > > are
> > > > a bunch of liars has become a crusade on this
> > > list, I will then make of my
> > > > point a crusade. Who is with me on the white
> > > horses to show the other
> > > > bunch
> > > > of people that sincerity is most important in the
> > > creation of any work of
> > > > art?
> > > >
> > > > The counterpart wants Allison Croggon, Kaspar and
> > > Candice and Stephen
> > > > allied
> > > > together, at least this is what I am getting from
> > > Croggon's last message.
> > > > Since this point was stated by Croggon and the
> > > others did not comment,
> > > > their
> > > > positions might not be that well defined.
> > > >
> > > > As in any war, at least this is what the present
> > > discussion seems to me by
> > > > now (see the persistent : I am right you are
> > > wrong, I am right you are
> > > > wrong
> > > > - repeated endless times and under an infinite
> > > variety of forms not
> > > > avoiding
> > > > terms like : manipulation, crass embroidery
> > > playing cards and what the
> > > > hell
> > > > - I also wish to underline that even if the
> > > insinuation was there it was
> > > > not
> > > > targeted but being this ___a war___ it becomes
> > > natural that it is
> > > > addressed
> > > > to the ___enemy__),
> > > > positions will change like pawns in a chessboard
> > > game. Therefore, let's
> > > > see
> > > > the movements from now on.
> > > >
> > > > I hate it when I have to deal with such undefined
> > > and stubborn forces that
> > > > need to show off what I do not know. This said, I
> > > do not think I will
> > > > utter
> > > > any other comment on sincerity under the present
> > > thread. The horses are in
> > > > the stables and 'morrow they will be used for
> > > better tasks. I just needed
> > > > to
> > > > show those who did not want to see what has been
> > > going on up to this
> > > > moment.
> > > >
> > > > Sincere, best whatever wishes.
> > > >
> > > > Anny Ballardini
> > > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> > > >
> > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> > > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> > > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to
> > > give birth to a dancing
> > > > star!
> > > > Friedrich Nietzsche
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 6/7/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Alison, thank you for your reply. Perhaps we are
> > > talking past each
> > > > other,
> > > > > but I stand by my distrust of the rejection of
> > > sincerity. I think that a
> > > > > far
> > > > > greater fault is a knowing & arch irony all too
> > > common in many
> > > > > contemporary
> > > > > poetries that dresses itself up as a rejection
> > > of sincerity. I mean, of
> > > > > course I know what you mean by sincerity--the
> > > cloying, self-aggrandizing
> > > > > mode in which the poet says "I'm such an
> > > asshole--don't you love me?" It
> > > > > is
> > > > > one of the fictions of postmodernism, though,
> > > that a writer can escape
> > > > the
> > > > > self. That's where the business about the "lyric
> > > I" comes in. I don't
> > > > > think
> > > > > that sincerity & "self-expression" are the same
> > > thing at all. I warn my
> > > > > students off self-expression right off when I
> > > teach writing classes.
> > > > > Perhaps
> > > > > what I have in mind is the Higher Sincerity, a
> > > sincerity of intention. I
> > > > > like Jonathan Mayhew's typology. (Jonathan is a
> > > Lorca scholar & poet.
> > > > His
> > > > > blog
> > > <http://jonathanmayhew.blogspot.com/index.html> is
> > > well worth
> > > > > checking
> > > > > out.) I don't think he'll mind my quoting this
> > > bit from my blog:
> > > > >
> > > > > sincere sincerity (Robert Creeley)
> > > > > insincere sincerity (bad confessional poetry)
> > > > > sincere insincerity (Oscar Wilde)
> > > > > insincere insincerity (artistically dishonest
> > > use of fictionality)
> > > > >
> > > > > jd
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 6/6/07, Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Joe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not sure you've understood me at all. I
> > > entered this conversation
> > > > by
> > > > > > pointing out that the "lyric I" can be much
> > > more complex than merely
> > > > the
> > > > > > singular reflection of a self expression, and
> > > that it has been
> > > > redefined
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > many interesting women writers in ways that
> > > deeply question the
> > > > > > singularity
> > > > > > of a given self. So in arguing against
> > > sincerity in art, I'm hardly
> > > > > > chucking
> > > > > > out the "I". Sincerity can be just as
> > > appalling in the third person,
> > > > as
> > > > > in
> > > > > > bad left wing plays that tell you all about
> > > everything you already
> > > > know
> > > > > > (sincerely, of course) in order to flatter you
> > > into thinking you're a
> > > > > good
> > > > > > person for believing that the right things are
> > > wrong.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nor do I think that Robert Creeley or Frank
> > > O'Hara or Alice Notley are
> > > > > > "sincere" poets. Not in the least. O'Hara's
> > > joke about Personism
> > > > surely
> > > > > > suggests something a little obliquely ironic
> > > there in relation to the
> > > > > > self.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But if I continue, I'll just be repeating what
> > > I've already said. I'm
> > > > > with
> > > > > > Kaspar; the true being most feigning is I
> > > think a quote from Hamlet,
> > > > and
> > > > > > even if something called "Mastering the
> > > Language of Literature" sounds
> > > > a
> > > > > > little dubious, Shakespeare is probably a
> > > respectable guide in these
> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user
> > panel and lay it on us.
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au
> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com
>
--
Andrew
http://hispirits.blogspot.com/
http://www.inblogs.net/hispirits
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