mairead,

regarding  your affection for and experience of reading Patrick Kavanagh - 
and asking which other poets have a dual mainstream and experimental force -

i suppose the most obvious other octopus is edwin morgan, and within the 
mainstream side of his work there's very formal and not so formal streams.

also, douglas oliver - where two bloodaxe collections - one of them a verse 
novel - but then also lots of other strands including the diagram poems.

elaine feinstein is of course the black mountain connection but stylistic 
breakage is mostly only overtly in the earliest collections ie (In a Green 
Eye) and maybe in some Tsvetayeva translations; yet perhaps this is more in 
the Kavanagh mode, where the experiment goes undercover as the mainstream 
reputation grows?

e.



>From: mairead byrne <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: mairead byrne <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: talking in greek
>Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 17:29:15 -0400
>
>I misread this as "musculature festivals,' Rupert.  That's the poetry world
>for you.
>For myself, I would have loved to get to the Slam final at the Nuyorican on
>April 27, when I was in NYC reading.  The reading in which I 
>paparticipated,
>in Brooklyn (Elaine Equi, David Lehman, and myself) was well attended, in a
>cool venue.  I wasn't sure if I'd get in to the Nuyorican though (which 
>also
>had the advantage of being late-night).  Mark, does the Nuyorican get a big
>crowd?  I know they've kept their ticket price at $7 for years, which seems
>a good price.
>Mairead
>
>On 5/7/07, rupertmallin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>  Tim
>>
>>As usual, you do acrobatics in both slamming (pun intended) the "morons"
>>who listen to Slam and Academia - almost in the same breath! You square no
>>circle.
>>
>>As I asked Jane, define 'What Is Poetry?'
>>
>>I can't, you can't, no one can - and that's it's Modern brilliance. And if
>>you say poetry is language without cliche then you've destroyed Satire in 
>>a
>>stroke. To me Post Modernism is far more cliche in always referencing
>>tradition without reference to history.
>>
>>Chris makes reference to an established readership. But even on the Arts
>>Council bullet point count, 'developing new audiences' is the goal.
>>Goodness, I never usually agree with ACE but if new audiences (readerships 
>>-
>>text, live, internet) are not developed, what then?
>>
>>What hurts is that Tim has called those who attend SLAMs and Performance
>>events 'Morons' - as if ordinary people are lower than him. He thereby 
>>shows
>>his utter ignorance of the origins of US SLAMs - and is reactionary 
>>indeed.
>>
>>***
>>
>>As previously said by myself here, there is a fast growing current of
>>'talk' and 'performance' poets in the UK who are coming together via
>>music/culture festivals, MySpace, YouTube, etc. Fine that Tim and Jane and
>>all do not want to be involved. Indeed, the idea of Tim rushing up to a
>>stage crying 'Morons' would be a wonder to behold!
>>
>>***
>>
>>If this Poetry List detaches itself from what is happening in the Big
>>Beyond, while essentially detaching itself from its own history of 
>>promoting
>>the new and experimental poetries then it is buggerd.
>>
>>Mr ArtRage x
>>
>>www.mallin.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>*From:* [log in to unmask]
>>*To:* [log in to unmask]
>>*Sent:* Monday, May 07, 2007 11:26 AM
>>*Subject:* Re: talking in greek
>>
>>John:
>> >"My advice to young people wondering whether to take poetry more
>>seriously
>>is: don't"< etc
>>
>>And what a richly suggestive etc? Really not sure about countering this,
>>not even certain that I've read you right, but I'll try. How serious are 
>>you
>>being John? For starters I don't think you should read too much into what
>>Jane calls 'serious poetry' - I think she means good poetry - poetry which
>>isn't cliched crap - poetry which isn't the kind of stuff which could only
>>entertain morons and gits and is little more than poor stand-up in rhyme
>>where nearly every line ends with tion. This isn't the first time I've 
>>come
>>across this notion of the Slam and performance scene being used as an
>>emotive - almost existential actually - answer to the problems of literary
>>snobbery and academic stranglehold. I too am well aware of the, "People 
>>who
>>turned socialist theory into a gladatorial contest for their own
>>institutional preferment" etc and often find myself beating my head 
>>against
>>the brick wall of various class and institutional attitudes. I don't like
>>the way avant poetries have become more and more the property of 
>>university
>>and other accreditation systems (such as the protective umbrella of the
>>performative and conceptual arts nexus with its links to grants etc - 
>>hence
>>my ongoing differences with chris cheek) and I can understand the mindset 
>>of
>>those who go the other way, in reaction, towards the popular platforms. 
>>But
>>it doesn't work. It becomes no more than gesture, a gesture which some 
>>carry
>>to ridiculous lengths so you get well-heeled university educated people 
>>who
>>praise and promote rubbish - giving the working classes what they think 
>>they
>>should have - while poo-pooing anything that disturbs that picture - such 
>>as
>>your poetry for example.
>>
>>Tim A.
>>
>>

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