A bit more re Zimbardo which may be of interest:-

 http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/politics/16881990.htm

David

-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark Burton
Sent: 09 March 2007 16:57
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] War, torture, psychology

thanks David.  I'm away from base at the moment so can't check all the info
I have.  What I would say is that PZ's analysis is consistent with an
analysis that actually contextualises the actions of the individual within
an abusive system.  One of the planks of the APA position is that
psychologists by being present in interrogations can act as a safeguard
against their becoming abusive.  However, it is extremely difficult for the
indivisual, in a total institution like Guantánamo to resist this - at best
they are likely to get sucked in to collusion.  this is why the other
profnl. groups oppose any involvement in interrogation, and why the APA
opposition, PsySR, IMB fund and other commentarors are also working for the
total ban on any involvement in interrogation.  (A similar kind of analysis
was used in defence of militants who were accused of riot by the apartheid
regime.) This isn't to agree with PZ's involvement in giving testimony that
might let abusers off the hook.  However we need an aapproach that both
exhorts the indivisual to behave ethically but also understands that it is
the overall context - the system, the structure, that are the sources of the
abuse.  Thisis why our article tried to broaden the focus from the ethical
codes of professionals to the use of psychological terror by the military
and State security organisations.
The issues aren't simple and I suppose it is important to make and develop
alliances even while disagreeing with some of the positions of those whith
whom we ally.
Mark


> Thanks Mark,
>
> The accumulation of 'information' is getting really interesting as it 
> promotes deeper critical consideration of the issues.
>
> It is really good to know PZ is progressive re. APA collusion with 
> what is euphemistically called 'interrogation.' Such a high profile 
> influential figure opposing the APA position is valuable.
>
> On the other hand an article appeared in the 'Stanford News'
> 'http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2007/february28/zimbardo-022807
> .html
> which included the following extract:
>
> "Zimbardo applied (t)his social psychological analysis to address the 
> abuses committed by American soldiers in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.
> Zimbardo focused on the situational influences that seduce good people 
> into behaving in ways that are alien to their traditional morality. He 
> later testified as an expert witness in the court martial of Staff Sgt.
> Ivan "Chip" Frederick, the highest-ranking officer implicated in the 
> scandal. Zimbardo argued that Frederick's sentence should be lessened 
> because the Stanford experiment had shown that few people can resist 
> the situational pressures that can exist in a prison. Despite 
> Zimbardo's testimony, Frederick received a maximum eight-year sentence 
> for abusing and humiliating Iraqi detainees"
>
> Of course this is a media release and PZ may not endorse all the 
> detail but it fits with what I know of PZ's position. We can, see in 
> this extract at least, Zimbardo's research has been deployed to position
"American(s)"
> as "good people" who have been "seduced" into acting (actually "behaving")
> in to "ways . . .   alien to their traditional morality" and that
> experimental psychology has shown that "situational pressures" are 
> difficult for individuals (people) to "resist"
>
> Zimbardo's position is presented as an account sensitive to context 
> but it is a very restricted notion of context by critical community 
> standards. It ignores for example the context of the United States 
> fighting an illegal war to promote a neocon agenda (US traditional 
> morality?) with troops who are systematically brutalised, taught 
> horrific interrogation techniques, given a green light to techniques 
> like waterboarding, sexual abuse, stress position etc., where the 
> 'enemy' is treated as less than human etc. It is also of course 
> thoroughly individualistic in a US rugged individualim sense (good 
> people are individuals who heroically resist difficult pressures from 
> the objective world outside)  etc. I would say it is a very very 
> restricted person-in-context account which draws attention to the 
> local prison context but distracts from the wider imperialistic, 
> military-economic, discursive, heterosexist, culturally myopic contexts
odf socilialisation and internalisation.
>
> I suggest PZ's position poses interesting dillemmas for critical 
> (community and other) psychologists if PZ is a progressive ally in 
> opposing APA collusion with abusive interrogation but does so out of a 
> commitment to more broadly decontextualising, depoliticising and 
> deideologising frame of reference which is antoprogressive
>
> I am not imply you disagree, Mark, just taking the opportunity  
> provided by your post to try to critically process the issues for 
> Community Psychology.
>
> Finally just to point out that the 'Stanford News' article finishes by 
> noting that "Zimbardo . . . . plans to continue teaching graduate 
> courses at . . . the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey." No comment.
>
> David
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Mark 
> Burton
> Sent: Fri 09/03/2007 00:42
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: War, torture, psychology
>
>
>
> On this issue he is with the angels
>
>> Thanks Mark . . . By "Philip Zimbardo is one of the people organising 
>> to reverse the position taken by the APA that in essence condones the 
>> participation of psychologists in interrogation" do you mean PZ is 
>> working to condone the participation of psychologists in 
>> interrogation or that the APA is working to condone the participation 
>> of psychologists in interrogation and PZ is opposing the APA?
>>
>> It seems to me that, more genrally, that PZ has deployed his Stanford 
>> work to explain 'away' the responsibility of torturers and torturers' 
>> minders and governments by repositioning torture as an inevitable 
>> outcome of situational factors
>>
>> David
>>
>> David Fryer
>> University of Stirling
>> FK9 4LA
>> Scotland
>> +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
>> +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List 
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark Burton
>> Sent: 08 March 2007 6:00 pm
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: War, torture, psychology
>>
>>
>> Thanks for this David
>> Philip Zimbardo is one of the people organising to reverse the 
>> position taken by the APA that in essence condones the participation 
>> of psychologists in interrogation.  It does this by 1. Allowing the 
>> participation of psychologists in interrogation as consultants to the 
>> military and State security organisations. 2. Refusing to investigate 
>> the involvement of psychologists in abusive interrogations at 
>> Guantánamo. 3.
>> Adopting the US government's 'reservations' to the UN declaration on 
>> torture (which seriously delimit the very definition of torture and 
>> exclude much psychological torture). 4. Allowing the 'Nuremberg defence'
>> of 'I was only following orders' - it is written into the APA ethics 
>> code
>> - the psychologist only has to demonstrate that they raised a concern 
>> and then go with the flow. You may remember that I wrote a article 
>> (with Carolyn Kagan) about this and the wider aspects of 
>> psychological torture.
>> This is now in press in the Psychologist.  Answering some editor 
>> queries at proof stage has brought me up to date with material that 
>> has emerged over the last 5 months.  I'm happy to share the links to 
>> these with anyone who is interested. Mark
>>
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> Given the interest on this list in community psychological 
>>> standpoints on war, as evident in the approaching West Midlands' 
>>> group hosted meeting in Birmingham, the following might be of interest.
>>>
>>> Philip Zimbardo is just about (March) to publish a book titled "The 
>>> Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil". I 
>>> understand he is coming to the UK mid-April to launch his new book. 
>>> Philip Zimbardo was responsible for the classic/ notorious Stanford 
>>> Prison Experiment, has spoken recently as a psychologist about the 
>>> abuse by US soldiers in Abu Ghraib prison.
>>>
>>> His position (explicated by himself below) is problematic in my view 
>>> in certain ways but he is certainly trying to bring psychology to 
>>> bear on oppression, war and torture
>>>
>>> The following is copied from the following website:
>>> http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_4.html
>>>
>>> "I believe that the prison guards at the Abu Ghraib Prison in Iraq, 
>>> who worked the night shift in Tier 1A, where prisoners were 
>>> physically and psychologically abused, had surrendered their free 
>>> will and personal responsibility during these episodes of mayhem. 
>>> But I could not prove it in a court of law. These eight army 
>>> reservists were trapped in a unique situation in which the 
>>> behavioral context came to dominate individual dispositions, values, 
>>> and morality to such an extent that they were transformed into 
>>> mindless actors alienated from their normal sense of personal 
>>> accountability for their actions-at that time and place. The "group 
>>> mind" that developed among these soldiers was created by a set of 
>>> known social psychological conditions, some of which are nicely 
>>> featured in Golding's Lord of the Flies. The same processes that I 
>>> witnessed in my Stanford Prison Experiment were clearly operating in
that remote place:
>>> Deindividuation, dehumanization, boredom, groupthink, role-playing, 
>>> rule control, and more. Beyond the relatively benign conditions in 
>>> my study, in that Iraqi prison, the guards experienced extreme 
>>> fatigue and exhaustion from working 12-hour shifts, 7 days a week, 
>>> for over a month at a time with no breaks. There was fear of being 
>>> killed from mortar and grenade attacks and from prisoners rioting. 
>>> There was revenge for buddies killed, and prejudice against these 
>>> foreigners for their strange religion and cultural traditions. There 
>>> was encouragement by staff "to soften up" the detainees for 
>>> interrogation because Tier 1A was the Interrogation-Soft Torture 
>>> center of that prison. Already in place when these young men and 
>>> women arrived there for their tour of duty were abusive practices 
>>> that had been "authorized" from the top of the chain of command: Use 
>>> of nakedness as a humiliation tactic, sensory and sleep deprivation, 
>>> stress positions, dog attacks, and more. In addition to the 
>>> situational variables and processes operating in that behavioral 
>>> setting were a serious of systemic processes that created the barrel 
>>> into which these good soldiers were forced to live and work. Most of 
>>> the reports of independent investigation committees cite a failure 
>>> of leadership, lack of leadership, or irresponsible leadership as 
>>> factors that contributed to these abuses. Then there was lack of 
>>> mission-specific training of the guards, no oversight, no 
>>> accountability to senior officers, poor resources, overcrowded 
>>> facilities, confusing commands from civilian interrogators at odds 
>>> with the CIA, military intelligence and other agencies and agents 
>>> all working in Tier 1A without clear communication channels and much 
>>> confusion. I was recently an expert witness for the defense of Sgt. Ivan
"Chip"
>>> Frederick in his Baghdad trial. Before the trial, I spent a day with 
>>> him, giving him an in-depth interview, checking all background 
>>> information, and arranging for him to be psychologically assessed by 
>>> the military. He is one of the alleged "bad apples" who these 
>>> investigations have labeled as "morally corrupt." What did he bring 
>>> into that situation and what did that situation bring into him? He 
>>> seemed very much to be a normal young American. His psych 
>>> assessments revealed no sign of any pathology, no sadistic 
>>> tendencies, and all his psych assessment scores are in the normal 
>>> range, as is his intelligence. He had been a prison guard at a small 
>>> minimal security prison where he performed for many years without 
>>> incident. So there is nothing in his background, temperament, or 
>>> disposition that could have been a facilitating factor for the 
>>> abuses he committed at the Abu Ghraib Prison. After a four-day long 
>>> trial, part of which included my testimony elaborating on the points 
>>> noted here, the Judge took barely one hour to find him guilty of all
eight counts and to sentence Sgt.
>>> Frederick to 8 years in prison, starting in solitary confinement in 
>>> Kuwait, dishonorable discharge, broken in rank from Sgt. to Pvt., 
>>> loss of his 20 years retirement income and his salary. This military 
>>> judge held Frederick personally responsible for the abuses, because 
>>> he had acted out of free will to intentionally harm these detainees 
>>> since he was not forced into these acts, was not mentally 
>>> incompetent, or acting in self-defense. All of the situational and 
>>> systemic determinants of his behavior and that of his buddies were 
>>> disregarded and given a zero weighting coefficient in assessing causal
factors.
>>> The real reason for the heavy sentence was the photographic 
>>> documentation of the undeniable abuses along with the smiling 
>>> abusers in their "trophy photos." It was the first time in history 
>>> that such images were publicly available of what goes on in many 
>>> prisons around the world, and especially in military prisons. They 
>>> humiliated the military, and the entire chain of command all the way 
>>> up the ladder to the White House. Following this exposure, 
>>> investigations of all American military prisons in that area of the 
>>> world uncovered similar abuses and worse, many murders of prisoners. 
>>> Recent evidence has revealed that similar abuses started taking 
>>> place again in Abu Ghraib prison barely one month after these 
>>> disclosures became public-when the "Evil Eight Culprits" were in 
>>> other prisons-as prisoners. Based on more than 30 years of research 
>>> on "The Lucifer Effect"-the transformation of good people into 
>>> perpetrators of evil-I believe that there are powerful situational 
>>> and systemic forces operating on individuals in certain situations 
>>> that can undercut a lifetime of morality and rationality. The 
>>> Dionysian aspect of human nature can triumph over the Apollonian, 
>>> not only during Mardi Gras, but in dynamic group settings like gang 
>>> rapes, fraternity hazing, mob riots, and in that Abu Ghraib prison. 
>>> I believe in that truth in general and especially in the case of 
>>> Sgt. Frederick, but I was not able to prove it in a military court of
law."
>>>
>>> For more see: http://www.zimbardo.com/zimbardo.html
>>> and / or
>>> http://www.zimbardo.com/downloads/Trophy%20Photos%20OP%20ED%20.pdf
>>>
>>> Perhaps critical community psychologists from this list might want 
>>> attend some of PZ's presentations and ask some questions. Of course 
>>> it would be wonderful - Carl and colleagues - if PZ accepted an 
>>> invitation to contribute to the day on 20th April!
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> The University of Stirling is a university established in Scotland 
>>> by charter at Stirling, FK9 4LA.  Privileged/Confidential 
>>> Information may be contained in this message.  If you are not the 
>>> addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of 
>>> the message to such person), you may not disclose, copy or deliver 
>>> this message to anyone and any action taken or omitted to be taken 
>>> in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful.  In such case, 
>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by 
>>> reply email.  Please advise immediately if you or your employer do 
>>> not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___________________________________
>>> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in 
>>> the UK. To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML
>>> For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator Rebekah 
>>> Pratt on [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___________________________________
>> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in 
>> the UK.
>> To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML
>> For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator Rebekah Pratt 
>> on [log in to unmask]
>>
>> --
>> The University of Stirling is a university established in Scotland by 
>> charter at Stirling, FK9 4LA.  Privileged/Confidential Information 
>> may be contained in this message.  If you are not the addressee 
>> indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message 
>> to such person), you may not disclose, copy or deliver this message 
>> to anyone and any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on 
>> it, is prohibited and may be unlawful.  In such case, you should 
>> destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.  
>> Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to 
>> Internet email for messages of this kind.
>>
>> ___________________________________
>> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in 
>> the UK.
>> To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML
>> For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator Rebekah Pratt 
>> on [log in to unmask]
>>
>
> ___________________________________
> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK.
> To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML
> For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator Rebekah Pratt 
> on [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> --
> The University of Stirling is a university established in Scotland by 
> charter at Stirling, FK9 4LA.  Privileged/Confidential Information may 
> be contained in this message.  If you are not the addressee indicated 
> in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such 
> person), you may not disclose, copy or deliver this message to anyone 
> and any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is 
> prohibited and may be unlawful.  In such case, you should destroy this 
> message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.  Please advise 
> immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email 
> for messages of this kind.
>
>
> ___________________________________
> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK.
> To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML
> For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator Rebekah Pratt 
> on [log in to unmask]
>
>

___________________________________
COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK.
To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML
For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator Rebekah Pratt on
[log in to unmask]

___________________________________
COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK.
To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML
For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator Rebekah Pratt on [log in to unmask]