Pete,
It is very difficult to prove that he has fiddled the system. In going after
this, there are no guarantees that this employer will be able to achieve
what you suggest they should ideally do so. I find that these sorts of
scenarios rise in organisations that the employers have no clear up-to-date
policies and are not prepared to be flexible when it would cost them no
extra do so so.If you delve further into it , you may even find that there
have been some interpersonal communication failures.
In my opinion, OH, in this instance, has the duty to manage and monitor this
employee's progress as if dealing with a genuine case.As you have no solid
evidence that it isnot.In doing so, OH will continue giving to the employer
the updates of the employee's progress after liaising with his GP and other
multidisciplinary health professionals involved in his treatment.The rest
will be up to the managers. You can suggest that the employee is assessed by
an OHP, but again it is not guaranteed that any more significant
recommendation could come out of this. OH is not doing the managers job for
them but advises them that it may not be easy to prove that he is fiddling
and therefore it may be the wrong route to take in setting out to disprove
the guy and finding a solution. However, I would go further by advising the
employers if they could possibly consider granting him his request for a
sabbatical which would mean that he has the choice of coming off the
sickness absence. It may be that the employee will no longer accept this
option either but at least he was offered it. Otherwise, he will most likely
remain off sick for the duration of the time that he had originally planned
and can even refuse to see OH for saying that anything to do with this job
is giving him more stress , he therefore wants to avoid coming in on site!
Of course, the employer has the option of dismissing him on the grounds of
misconduct but will they have enough evidence to present to a tribunal when
the time comes? That is something for them to explore with the help of their
legal advisors. I am not sure if I would ever be in a position to advise an
employer to pay for a detective to gather evidence, it kind of doesn't go
with my views for an effective OH role. Then again, one must never say
never!!!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of Peter Judge
Sent: 15 February 2007 15:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
Hiya Noushin
I think the point is he has fiddled the system, he knows it, his GP knows,
but most importantly his
employer knows and it is his employers responsibility to deal with it not
OH's. You cannot ask for a
sabatical to set up your own business, get turned down, go on sickness
absence leave to suck your
thumb because you can't reach your dummy and then ask for the same sabatical
under the same
circmstances when you are actually supposed to be physically incapable of
working.
That is fraudulent and his employer would be better spending a couple of
hundred quid hiring a
private investigator to prove he is doing this and deal with him via the
disciplinary procedures
rather than the sickness absence procedure. What happened to whistleblowing
anyway.
We are very good in OH at doing other people's work for them, in this case
line management should
be more proactive and set an example, I don't doubt that he has already told
half the workforce what
his intentions are anyway.
After all that though my main gripe was doctors being held in some sort of
God like status, not to
be questioned by anyone least of all a NURSE.
Cheers
Pete
>>> "N. Rostami" <[log in to unmask]> 15/02/2007 12:17 >>>
Pete,
I would like to give the benefit of doubt to the GP who has most likely
based his opinion and advice on the symptoms that this gentleman has
presented to him. It is possible for such symptoms to have a sudden onset,
meaning, if he didn't report them at his first visit to his GP, maybe he did
so at his second visit!
Do you really think that it is best to spend one's energy trying to prove
that this gentleman is really only suffering from a fabricated stress or
would you say that you would look at other avenues and options of resolving
this for both sides. By the time you set out to witch hunt, it will be six
months and this gentleman will probably miraculously recover from his
symptoms and ready to return to work!
What the employer is suffering from at this point is that it appears to have
lost face and feels that their authority has been undermined by an employee
who has been clever in playing the system. Maybe, this can be a lesson for
future to look closely at people's requests and reasons as to why they can't
attend work and thus considering policies on sabbaticals. Meanwhile, the
employer is also likely to be losing valuable time managing this case and
valuable money paying out for Sick pay, not to mention the OH costs. Also,
this saga( watched closely by the rest of the workforce) is creating a
negative impact on the ethos of the work place. Although, there is the other
matter of the confidentiality of individual cases.i.e. no one else at work
should be aware of what is really going on with this gentleman!
The employee has played foul but has found the loophole! However, if given
the choice he would probably prefer to minimise his liability and any future
friction with the management and thus he may be willing to sit down and
discuss the option of the sabbatical as a way out of this mess. In my
experience, sometimes the management who have passed on these types of
problems to OH , and whilst the OH is doing their very best to follow the
right procedures and principles in bringing the employee back to work asap,
suddenly, out of the blue, they strike a deal with the employee and all
OH's hard work turns out to be futile...I agree that GPs can be challenged
but I would chose by battles very carefully as for instance in this case ,
this employee does not want to return to work yet.
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of Peter Judge
Sent: 15 February 2007 11:21
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
Whooaa Sue
Point 2 - since when was anybody on thin ice for questioning a doctor, NO
apologies to anyone from
this profession but they are not gods, do get things wrong, evident in this
case and it does not
take another doctor to point this out to them.
Med 3's are opinions and no more than that, anyone can question someones
opinion, particularly in
this case as the GP if it is the same one who previously one week before
declared him fit to work is
now behaving in a less than ethical manner and the phrase "fraudulent claim"
springs to mind as does
aiding and abetting. HR or Line management could happily question the GP
regarding this med 3, it
does not have to be the domain of the OH practitioner.
You might wish to get a OHP opinion but it should not be because you feel
you cannot question
someones opinion, rather that in this case you do not trust that persons
opinion as you have very
good reason to question the ethics and morals of it.
Cheers
Pete
>>> Sue Morley <[log in to unmask]> 15/02/2007 10:41 >>>
Difficult situation.
Few thoughts. 1) What does the companies S/A policy say. 2) Refer to an OHP
with MFOM. They can
question a GP cert where as OHA's are on thinner ice. 3) Get personnel/HR
seek the advice of an
employment lawyer, he is after all effectively holding the company to ransom
unless medical opinion
(MFOM) supports his ill health claims.4) It is bizarre for a GP to sign fit
one week only to change
his mind the next, did he perhaps see a different GP in the practice? 4)
Does the company have a
flexible working/family friendly policy etc that would cover his request for
a sabbatical. 5) In my
experience GP's reports can be notorious for what they don't say (sorry all
those GP's out there) in
cases like this. 6) the company does not have to accommodate long term
sickness absence if this is
what it turns into, especially in the light of the denied request. Hence the
need for employment
legal advice.
My gut feeling is get a medical opinion from a MFOM it will be worth it in
the long run and then
hand back to personnel as it then becomes a management issue.
Sue
_____
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of Harrison-Stone,
SueSent: 15 February 2007 09:27To: [log in to unmask]:
[OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
Dear All
One of our engineers requested 6mths sabbatical to get married, do up his
house ready for his new
wife AND to set up his own central heating business. He said that if his
business failed he would
still have a job to return to after the 6mths. He is well known for running
his business from work
booking appts etc for out of work time. Half the factory seems to use his
services. He was
disciplined for using company time to arrange appts but that was a year ago
so from the point of
moving to the second stage of disciplining that has now lapsed.
His sabbatical request was not granted. A week later he went off sick with
work related stress.
At a meeting he said he felt undervalued, tired and had abdominal pain. He
also said he didn't like
his Dept. manager but in practise he reported into a line manager and rarely
had any dealings with
the Dept. manager. He said that he had said to the L/M a week before he
went off sick that he was
stressed but the L/M has no record of that and in fact says the chap had
asked for more work!
He then sent in another request for sabbatical leave based this time on his
stress would take
4-6mths to recover from as he was so ill. He is not on any treatment for
anything. He has been
offered a change of job too. I wrote to his GP with the grudging permission
of the employee. I
asked the usual question of the GP but also expressing concern that if he
was so ill should he have
treatment, did the GP know about the two requests for sabbaticals and the
request for more work and
that he did not report into the manager he allegedly had problems with. I
also said we would offer
him a different job and a RTW programme. GP signed him back to work! Great!
No! The day before he
was due back to work he went to the GP with stress, abdominal pain and now
hypertension result
signed off sick for 2wks on beta blockers. GP says he is stressed. No
matter what time of day we
call this man is never at home. Should have been back today but now is
signed off sick again
because he had a 'reaction to his medication. Gp's letter did not
acknowledge any of my concerns
including whether the tiredness could be due to the fact he works f/t here
then does out off work
job repairing central heating. His wedding is now three wks away and he has
4wks holiday
provisionally booked as A/L for that. As he is so well known in the factory
all the workforce are
looking to see how long he can stay away!
Any suggestions please?
Sorry about the length of the email!
Sue
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