I have a video camera...LOL
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of Stephanie McGauley
Sent: 15 February 2007 17:36
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
I agree with Pete and Jane - all the facts point to this gentleman's "toys
being out of the pram". You could write to the GP and ask what has changed
due to the reaction to treatment. But i also agree as will all of you
impartiality and condfidentaility is crucial. Let management deal with it.
If they have robust policies and procedures they should stand up. Get them
to take it further.
Its interesting about the surveillance. I do some work for a provider and
we recently received a tape recording of an employee with a "severe back
issue" from his employer showing him walking about managing daily activities
whereby he had fooled the OHP into thinking he was very incapable of
anything !! Obviously his employer used the evidence for their case and i
understand many businesses are going down this route.
Heres to the future of surveillance - anyone want to start up a business in
case it makes us a bit redundant let me know !!
Regards and best wishes
Steph
On 15 Feb 2007, at 15:46, Peter Judge wrote:
> Hiya Noushin
>
> I think the point is he has fiddled the system, he knows it, his GP
> knows, but most importantly his employer knows and it is his employers
> responsibility to deal with it not OH's. You cannot ask for a
> sabatical to set up your own business, get turned down, go on sickness
> absence leave to suck your thumb because you can't reach your dummy
> and then ask for the same sabatical under the same circmstances when
> you are actually supposed to be physically incapable of working.
>
> That is fraudulent and his employer would be better spending a couple
> of hundred quid hiring a private investigator to prove he is doing
> this and deal with him via the disciplinary procedures rather than the
> sickness absence procedure. What happened to whistleblowing anyway.
>
> We are very good in OH at doing other people's work for them, in this
> case line management should be more proactive and set an example, I
> don't doubt that he has already told half the workforce what his
> intentions are anyway.
>
> After all that though my main gripe was doctors being held in some
> sort of God like status, not to be questioned by anyone least of all a
> NURSE.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pete
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> "N. Rostami" <[log in to unmask]> 15/02/2007 12:17 >>>
> Pete,
> I would like to give the benefit of doubt to the GP who has most
> likely based his opinion and advice on the symptoms that this
> gentleman has presented to him. It is possible for such symptoms to
> have a sudden onset, meaning, if he didn't report them at his first
> visit to his GP, maybe he did so at his second visit!
> Do you really think that it is best to spend one's energy trying to
> prove that this gentleman is really only suffering from a fabricated
> stress or would you say that you would look at other avenues and
> options of resolving this for both sides. By the time you set out to
> witch hunt, it will be six months and this gentleman will probably
> miraculously recover from his symptoms and ready to return to work!
> What the employer is suffering from at this point is that it appears
> to have lost face and feels that their authority has been undermined
> by an employee who has been clever in playing the system. Maybe, this
> can be a lesson for future to look closely at people's requests and
> reasons as to why they can't attend work and thus considering policies
> on sabbaticals.
> Meanwhile, the
> employer is also likely to be losing valuable time managing this case
> and valuable money paying out for Sick pay, not to mention the OH
> costs. Also, this saga( watched closely by the rest of the workforce)
> is creating a negative impact on the ethos of the work place.
> Although, there is the other matter of the confidentiality of
> individual cases.i.e. no one else at work should be aware of what is
> really going on with this gentleman!
> The employee has played foul but has found the loophole! However, if
> given the choice he would probably prefer to minimise his liability
> and any future friction with the management and thus he may be willing
> to sit down and discuss the option of the sabbatical as a way out of
> this mess. In my experience, sometimes the management who have passed
> on these types of problems to OH , and whilst the OH is doing their
> very best to follow the right procedures and principles in bringing
> the employee back to work asap, suddenly, out of the blue, they
> strike a deal with the employee and all OH's hard work turns out to be
> futile...I agree that GPs can be challenged but I would chose by
> battles very carefully as for instance in this case , this employee
> does not want to return to work yet.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf
> Of Peter Judge
> Sent: 15 February 2007 11:21
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
>
> Whooaa Sue
>
> Point 2 - since when was anybody on thin ice for questioning a doctor,
> NO apologies to anyone from this profession but they are not gods, do
> get things wrong, evident in this case and it does not take another
> doctor to point this out to them.
>
> Med 3's are opinions and no more than that, anyone can question
> someones opinion, particularly in this case as the GP if it is the
> same one who previously one week before declared him fit to work is
> now behaving in a less than ethical manner and the phrase "fraudulent
> claim"
> springs to mind as does
> aiding and abetting. HR or Line management could happily question the
> GP regarding this med 3, it does not have to be the domain of the OH
> practitioner.
>
> You might wish to get a OHP opinion but it should not be because you
> feel you cannot question someones opinion, rather that in this case
> you do not trust that persons opinion as you have very good reason to
> question the ethics and morals of it.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pete
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> Sue Morley <[log in to unmask]> 15/02/2007 10:41 >>>
> Difficult situation.
> Few thoughts. 1) What does the companies S/A policy say. 2) Refer to
> an OHP with MFOM. They can question a GP cert where as OHA's are on
> thinner ice. 3) Get personnel/HR seek the advice of an employment
> lawyer, he is after all effectively holding the company to ransom
> unless medical opinion
> (MFOM) supports his ill health claims.4) It is bizarre for a GP to
> sign fit one week only to change his mind the next, did he perhaps see
> a different GP in the practice? 4) Does the company have a flexible
> working/family friendly policy etc that would cover his request for a
> sabbatical. 5) In my experience GP's reports can be notorious for what
> they don't say (sorry all those GP's out there) in cases like this. 6)
> the company does not have to accommodate long term sickness absence if
> this is what it turns into, especially in the light of the denied
> request.
> Hence the
> need for employment
> legal advice.
> My gut feeling is get a medical opinion from a MFOM it will be worth
> it in the long run and then hand back to personnel as it then becomes
> a management issue.
> Sue
> _____
> From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf
> Of Harrison-Stone,
> SueSent: 15 February 2007 09:27To: [log in to unmask]:
> [OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
>
> Dear All
>
> One of our engineers requested 6mths sabbatical to get married, do up
> his house ready for his new wife AND to set up his own central heating
> business. He said that if his business failed he would still have a
> job to return to after the 6mths. He is well known for running his
> business from work booking appts etc for out of work time. Half the
> factory seems to use his services. He was disciplined for using
> company time to arrange appts but that was a year ago so from the
> point of moving to the second stage of disciplining that has now
> lapsed.
>
> His sabbatical request was not granted. A week later he went off sick
> with work related stress.
> At a meeting he said he felt undervalued, tired and had abdominal
> pain. He also said he didn't like his Dept. manager but in practise
> he reported into a line manager and rarely had any dealings with the
> Dept. manager. He said that he had said to the L/M a week before he
> went off sick that he was stressed but the L/M has no record of that
> and in fact says the chap had asked for more work!
>
> He then sent in another request for sabbatical leave based this time
> on his stress would take 4-6mths to recover from as he was so ill. He
> is not on any treatment for anything. He has been offered a change of
> job too. I wrote to his GP with the grudging permission of the
> employee. I asked the usual question of the GP but also expressing
> concern that if he was so ill should he have treatment, did the GP
> know about the two requests for sabbaticals and the request for more
> work and that he did not report into the manager he allegedly had
> problems with. I also said we would offer him a different job and a
> RTW programme. GP signed him back to work! Great!
> No! The day before he
> was due back to work he went to the GP with stress, abdominal pain and
> now hypertension result signed off sick for 2wks on beta blockers. GP
> says he is stressed. No matter what time of day we call this man is
> never at home. Should have been back today but now is signed off sick
> again because he had a 'reaction to his medication. Gp's letter did
> not acknowledge any of my concerns including whether the tiredness
> could be due to the fact he works f/ t here then does out off work job
> repairing central heating. His wedding is now three wks away and he
> has 4wks holiday provisionally booked as A/L for that. As he is so
> well known in the factory all the workforce are looking to see how
> long he can stay away!
>
> Any suggestions please?
>
> Sorry about the length of the email!
>
> Sue
>
>
>
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