I agree with Pete and Jane - all the facts point to this gentleman's
"toys being out of the pram". You could write to the GP and ask what
has changed due to the reaction to treatment. But i also agree as
will all of you impartiality and condfidentaility is crucial. Let
management deal with it. If they have robust policies and procedures
they should stand up. Get them to take it further.
Its interesting about the surveillance. I do some work for a
provider and we recently received a tape recording of an employee
with a "severe back issue" from his employer showing him walking
about managing daily activities whereby he had fooled the OHP into
thinking he was very incapable of anything !! Obviously his employer
used the evidence for their case and i understand many businesses are
going down this route.
Heres to the future of surveillance - anyone want to start up a
business in case it makes us a bit redundant let me know !!
Regards and best wishes
Steph
On 15 Feb 2007, at 15:46, Peter Judge wrote:
> Hiya Noushin
>
> I think the point is he has fiddled the system, he knows it, his GP
> knows, but most importantly his
> employer knows and it is his employers responsibility to deal with
> it not OH's. You cannot ask for a
> sabatical to set up your own business, get turned down, go on
> sickness absence leave to suck your
> thumb because you can't reach your dummy and then ask for the same
> sabatical under the same
> circmstances when you are actually supposed to be physically
> incapable of working.
>
> That is fraudulent and his employer would be better spending a
> couple of hundred quid hiring a
> private investigator to prove he is doing this and deal with him
> via the disciplinary procedures
> rather than the sickness absence procedure. What happened to
> whistleblowing anyway.
>
> We are very good in OH at doing other people's work for them, in
> this case line management should
> be more proactive and set an example, I don't doubt that he has
> already told half the workforce what
> his intentions are anyway.
>
> After all that though my main gripe was doctors being held in some
> sort of God like status, not to
> be questioned by anyone least of all a NURSE.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pete
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> "N. Rostami" <[log in to unmask]> 15/02/2007 12:17 >>>
> Pete,
> I would like to give the benefit of doubt to the GP who has most
> likely
> based his opinion and advice on the symptoms that this gentleman has
> presented to him. It is possible for such symptoms to have a sudden
> onset,
> meaning, if he didn't report them at his first visit to his GP,
> maybe he did
> so at his second visit!
> Do you really think that it is best to spend one's energy trying to
> prove
> that this gentleman is really only suffering from a fabricated
> stress or
> would you say that you would look at other avenues and options of
> resolving
> this for both sides. By the time you set out to witch hunt, it will
> be six
> months and this gentleman will probably miraculously recover from his
> symptoms and ready to return to work!
> What the employer is suffering from at this point is that it
> appears to have
> lost face and feels that their authority has been undermined by an
> employee
> who has been clever in playing the system. Maybe, this can be a
> lesson for
> future to look closely at people's requests and reasons as to why
> they can't
> attend work and thus considering policies on sabbaticals.
> Meanwhile, the
> employer is also likely to be losing valuable time managing this
> case and
> valuable money paying out for Sick pay, not to mention the OH
> costs. Also,
> this saga( watched closely by the rest of the workforce) is creating a
> negative impact on the ethos of the work place. Although, there is
> the other
> matter of the confidentiality of individual cases.i.e. no one else
> at work
> should be aware of what is really going on with this gentleman!
> The employee has played foul but has found the loophole! However,
> if given
> the choice he would probably prefer to minimise his liability and
> any future
> friction with the management and thus he may be willing to sit down
> and
> discuss the option of the sabbatical as a way out of this mess. In my
> experience, sometimes the management who have passed on these types of
> problems to OH , and whilst the OH is doing their very best to
> follow the
> right procedures and principles in bringing the employee back to
> work asap,
> suddenly, out of the blue, they strike a deal with the employee
> and all
> OH's hard work turns out to be futile...I agree that GPs can be
> challenged
> but I would chose by battles very carefully as for instance in this
> case ,
> this employee does not want to return to work yet.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf
> Of Peter Judge
> Sent: 15 February 2007 11:21
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
>
> Whooaa Sue
>
> Point 2 - since when was anybody on thin ice for questioning a
> doctor, NO
> apologies to anyone from
> this profession but they are not gods, do get things wrong, evident
> in this
> case and it does not
> take another doctor to point this out to them.
>
> Med 3's are opinions and no more than that, anyone can question
> someones
> opinion, particularly in
> this case as the GP if it is the same one who previously one week
> before
> declared him fit to work is
> now behaving in a less than ethical manner and the phrase
> "fraudulent claim"
> springs to mind as does
> aiding and abetting. HR or Line management could happily question
> the GP
> regarding this med 3, it
> does not have to be the domain of the OH practitioner.
>
> You might wish to get a OHP opinion but it should not be because
> you feel
> you cannot question
> someones opinion, rather that in this case you do not trust that
> persons
> opinion as you have very
> good reason to question the ethics and morals of it.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pete
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> Sue Morley <[log in to unmask]> 15/02/2007 10:41 >>>
> Difficult situation.
> Few thoughts. 1) What does the companies S/A policy say. 2) Refer
> to an OHP
> with MFOM. They can
> question a GP cert where as OHA's are on thinner ice. 3) Get
> personnel/HR
> seek the advice of an
> employment lawyer, he is after all effectively holding the company
> to ransom
> unless medical opinion
> (MFOM) supports his ill health claims.4) It is bizarre for a GP to
> sign fit
> one week only to change
> his mind the next, did he perhaps see a different GP in the
> practice? 4)
> Does the company have a
> flexible working/family friendly policy etc that would cover his
> request for
> a sabbatical. 5) In my
> experience GP's reports can be notorious for what they don't say
> (sorry all
> those GP's out there) in
> cases like this. 6) the company does not have to accommodate long term
> sickness absence if this is
> what it turns into, especially in the light of the denied request.
> Hence the
> need for employment
> legal advice.
> My gut feeling is get a medical opinion from a MFOM it will be
> worth it in
> the long run and then
> hand back to personnel as it then becomes a management issue.
> Sue
> _____
> From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf
> Of Harrison-Stone,
> SueSent: 15 February 2007 09:27To: [log in to unmask]:
> [OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
>
> Dear All
>
> One of our engineers requested 6mths sabbatical to get married, do
> up his
> house ready for his new
> wife AND to set up his own central heating business. He said that
> if his
> business failed he would
> still have a job to return to after the 6mths. He is well known
> for running
> his business from work
> booking appts etc for out of work time. Half the factory seems to
> use his
> services. He was
> disciplined for using company time to arrange appts but that was a
> year ago
> so from the point of
> moving to the second stage of disciplining that has now lapsed.
>
> His sabbatical request was not granted. A week later he went off
> sick with
> work related stress.
> At a meeting he said he felt undervalued, tired and had abdominal
> pain. He
> also said he didn't like
> his Dept. manager but in practise he reported into a line manager
> and rarely
> had any dealings with
> the Dept. manager. He said that he had said to the L/M a week
> before he
> went off sick that he was
> stressed but the L/M has no record of that and in fact says the
> chap had
> asked for more work!
>
> He then sent in another request for sabbatical leave based this
> time on his
> stress would take
> 4-6mths to recover from as he was so ill. He is not on any
> treatment for
> anything. He has been
> offered a change of job too. I wrote to his GP with the grudging
> permission
> of the employee. I
> asked the usual question of the GP but also expressing concern that
> if he
> was so ill should he have
> treatment, did the GP know about the two requests for sabbaticals
> and the
> request for more work and
> that he did not report into the manager he allegedly had problems
> with. I
> also said we would offer
> him a different job and a RTW programme. GP signed him back to
> work! Great!
> No! The day before he
> was due back to work he went to the GP with stress, abdominal pain
> and now
> hypertension result
> signed off sick for 2wks on beta blockers. GP says he is
> stressed. No
> matter what time of day we
> call this man is never at home. Should have been back today but
> now is
> signed off sick again
> because he had a 'reaction to his medication. Gp's letter did not
> acknowledge any of my concerns
> including whether the tiredness could be due to the fact he works f/
> t here
> then does out off work
> job repairing central heating. His wedding is now three wks away
> and he has
> 4wks holiday
> provisionally booked as A/L for that. As he is so well known in
> the factory
> all the workforce are
> looking to see how long he can stay away!
>
> Any suggestions please?
>
> Sorry about the length of the email!
>
> Sue
>
>
>
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