_Leonardo Electronic Almanac Discussion (LEAD)_

Apologies for cross-posting. The following is the unedited transcript
from Tuesday's chat session with hypermedia artist and poet Jason
Nelson, part of the online discussion around the New Media Poetics
special issue of the _Leonardo Online Almanac_ (http://leoalmanac.org/).


<begin transcript>

[12:59 PM]<sandy> Hi there. We'll start in about two minutes
[12:59 PM]<jasonnelson> hey daniel!!!!!!!!!! welcome to this texty
place
[12:59 PM]<daniel_howe> thanks  
[12:59 PM]<sandy>  
[12:59 PM]<jasonnelson> how is your world?
[12:59 PM]<daniel_howe> i like text
[1:00 PM]<daniel_howe> is it just the 3 of us?
[1:00 PM]<jasonnelson> what about text do you like? (and other
awkwardly worded lines)
[1:00 PM]<sandy> - i'm still figuring out what can be done text-wise in
here. not as much as a talker or ytalk, but more than the
clc/plonechat.
[1:01 PM]<sandy> just 3 at the moment, but let's give it a few minutes
- a few others said they would be "here"
[1:01 PM]<daniel_howe> cool, yes plone was a bit clunky...
[1:02 PM]<sandy> i'd thought initially of doing this all in irc... i
was saying to jason, now i wish i'd done it in 2nd life, but perhaps
next time.
[1:02 PM]<sandy> OK, well let's organize.
[1:02 PM]<daniel_howe> lol, yes that would have been cool...
[1:02 PM]<sandy> here's formal intro stuff: This is one of several
chats scheduled with authors in the LEA special issue on New Media
Poetics
[1:02 PM]<jasonnelson> ahh the mix of thunder and sirens.....a noise
that reminds me of home...
[1:03 PM]<sandy> Today we're happy to welcome digital artist and
cyberpoet Jason Nelson.
My name is Sandy Baldwin, and I'm organizing this chat. Today we're
happy to welcome digital artist and cyberpoet Jason Nelson.
[1:03 PM]<sandy> oh, I pasted that twice.
[1:03 PM]<sandy> Sirens? You mean women singing down at the beach?
[1:03 PM]<daniel_howe> its the silence that kills you...
[1:03 PM]<jasonnelson> I wish.......maybe they are the
swans.........building long legs and overly tanned faces
[1:04 PM]<sandy> Daniel, you're at NYU correct? Can you say some about
your work there?
[1:04 PM]<jasonnelson> I've been watching baby swans grow in the lake
that bumps against our deck
[1:05 PM]<jasonnelson> Tell us Daniel....tell us
[1:05 PM]<daniel_howe> sure, i'm working on my phd dissertation now, on
interactive real-time computer poetry generation
[1:05 PM]<daniel_howe> thats many adjectives in a row..
[1:05 PM]<sandy> Yes, can you parse some of it? What kind of generation
are you working on?
[1:05 PM]<sandy> Is this at the Interactive Telecom program?
[1:06 PM]<jasonnelson> do you mean poetry "text" generator....or are
you expanding the idea of text to include the broader meaning of symbol
as in image and sounds etc
[1:06 PM]<daniel_howe> no, im at the media research lab at nyu, which
is officially in the comp-sci dept
[1:06 PM]<sandy> - ah
[1:06 PM]<jasonnelson> and how is it interactive?
[1:06 PM]<sandy> and how is it p o e t r y
[1:06 PM]<daniel_howe> im also doing some work up at brown, teaching
electronic writing, etc so splitting time between providence and nyc
[1:06 PM]<jasonnelson> is it an AI...alice bot sort of thing?
[1:07 PM]<daniel_howe> so i've been working for some time on a system
for poetry generation that works in real-time...
[1:07 PM]<sandy> at brown: is this related to the fellowship - what is
it, that bkstefans and talan etc. had?
[1:07 PM]<daniel_howe> one that a user can guide as the poem
progresses....
[1:07 PM]<daniel_howe> [yes, that is the same fellowship... aya
karpinski is the 2007 person]
[1:08 PM]<jasonnelson> how much of the programming is you?   meaning
how do you write the "rules" to create a certain style of poetry...or is
that even part of the deal?
[1:08 PM]<sandy> gotcha. good for aya.
[1:08 PM]<daniel_howe> well the project is expanding in lots of
different directions...
[1:08 PM]<sandy> oh i see, guiding the poem's progress: are you
familiar with j-p balpe's generators?
[1:09 PM]<sandy> - they seem similar at first description
[1:09 PM]<daniel_howe> i remember reading a paper of his that robert
simanowski mentioned at brown..
[1:10 PM]<daniel_howe> think it was called 'Principles of Generative
Literature'... or something to that effect
[1:10 PM]<sandy> segue: Jason, can you talk about programming in your
work? Is it all Nelson programmed?
[1:10 PM]<jasonnelson> to be honest I've always been a bit wary of
poetry generators..........largely because I find that so few people
write poetry I enjoy that many of the comp sci creations are more
interesting in the descriptions of how they work and less so for what
they generate
[1:10 PM]<daniel_howe> that is always an interesting question, one that
noah wardfrip-fruin addressed in his recent phd thesis...
[1:11 PM]<daniel_howe> whether we look at the process or the product in
such work...
[1:11 PM]<jasonnelson> an example of an ongoing project of mine is to
use speech to text software
[1:11 PM]<daniel_howe> or if the process is the product...
[1:11 PM]<sandy> - in a way, surely an old question, i'm thinking for
example of earlier procedural poetics, say oulipo or maclow
[1:11 PM]<jasonnelson> I use an old version of dragon natural speaking,
the newer ones work too well
[1:11 PM]<sandy> Jason: yes, speech-text, tell more
[1:12 PM]<daniel_howe> yes, this comes up in discussions of maclow (and
cage, etc) quite often
[1:12 PM]<sandy> "dragon natural speaking"?
[1:12 PM]<jasonnelson> and I filter......old movies........or music or
ambient noises....and you get this long text file of half correct and
half crazed text
[1:13 PM]<jasonnelson> then based on some basic rules I create poems
from that text...mostly cutting and culling
[1:13 PM]<jasonnelson> really nothing more than a way to build ideas
[1:13 PM]<sandy> so the long file is a kind of reservoir of texts.
[1:13 PM]<sandy> - do you use the sounds as well?
[1:13 PM]<jasonnelson> yes sir exactly
[1:14 PM]<daniel_howe> very interesting... relates to the semantic
richness people have mentioned finding when they use 'non-native' 
languages..
[1:14 PM]<jasonnelson> for that project it is just the text....although
I have been toying with doing the reverse...which is to find our which
sounds make which words....and then order the sounds together
[1:14 PM]<sandy> Can you talk about rules for poem creating?
[1:14 PM]<sandy> cutup more or less?
[1:15 PM]<daniel_howe> beckett (interesting procedural writer) talked
about this some...
[1:16 PM]<jasonnelson> sadly I am a haphazard and poorly read
poet......and my rules are to not add words, keep them in the same order
and cut things out........to form the poem....really it is more trick
than art....more magic show than conceptual process....although that is
the farmer in me speaking
[1:16 PM]<jasonnelson> but sandy you asked about programming......
[1:16 PM]<jasonnelson> so.....I am a miner
[1:16 PM]<jasonnelson> I mine code
[1:16 PM]<daniel_howe> a gardener?
[1:17 PM]<sandy> well where does the programming come in for you? do
you think of algorithms early on in this process, or only later?
[1:18 PM]<sandy> i'm mentally comparing, say, jim rosenberg, who also
works with a reservoir of words culled from a range of sources, but the
point - for him - is to put them into a particular spaces and linking
relation. the words are almost (not entirely) secondary
[1:18 PM]<jasonnelson> yeah maybe that too.........I tend to cobble
code together from various sources.....at any time.....like right
now......I have five different projects going....a side scrolling
game......an image morphing, warping painting thing......a sound
artwork......a large poetic work dealing with editing and cutting and
erasing   and an rss feed visualizer
[1:19 PM]<sandy> could you name or describe what you do in cobbling it
together - does it remain largely intuitive?
[1:20 PM]<jasonnelson> so.........I've always tried to think of all the
processes of making an artwork at once.........and yes it is very
intuitive....a way to keep the mind from getting bored
[1:20 PM]<sandy> you often use organic images in describing what you do
- e.g. netcreatures - and you also work with some "natural" data as
feeds - I'm thinking of the weather piece. comments on this?
[1:20 PM]<jasonnelson> I tend to be prolific, becuase I do not even
attempt to finish something...in fact I notice that when I start a
project I will finish two others before i finish the first
[1:21 PM]<sandy> - so, you are kind of like a hydra
[1:22 PM]<jasonnelson> the weather piece I love and hate.......it shows
that rss feeds are grand in that they can drive a creative
engine.........but it was my first experiment into that...and the
trouble with the weather work is that you really have to go back and
back and back to see the changes....I can tell the exact weather from
it...now
[1:23 PM]<daniel_howe> that issue of mapping always seems particularly
difficult...
[1:23 PM]<sandy> How do you mean go back and back - because of the slow
changes?
[1:23 PM]<sandy> so, in a way, you need something more dynamic - or you
need the weather piece to work somehow more ambiently? like just
residing on the corner of the desktop
[1:24 PM]<jasonnelson> so the next version of it....is to use news
feeds....and to have the engine look for certain words....and have those
words....be identified....by building parts...hand drawn skyscrapper
sections...so what you get is an emotional city.....built on the
language of the news feed....should be done in a few weeks
[1:24 PM]<sandy> excellent - emotional city is really vivid too.
[1:24 PM]<daniel_howe> mmm, sounds great, love that phrase: 'emotional
city'
[1:24 PM]<sandy> i'm not sure, but aren't these you first forays into
driving the work with network data?
[1:25 PM]<jasonnelson> much of my work.....I think kinda
sucks....because it is building into something else hopefully....and it
is that something else that alwayt interests me most
[1:25 PM] mldeed has entered the room.
[1:25 PM]<sandy> Hello.
[1:25 PM]<mldeed> Hi
[1:26 PM]<jasonnelson> others have had connections to outside
data....but not nearly as closely driven
[1:26 PM]<sandy> jason - do you mean it is building to something
specific or that's it's always "in process"?
[1:26 PM]<jasonnelson> howdy
[1:26 PM]<daniel_howe> hi m
[1:26 PM]<mldeed> a little late
[1:26 PM]<sandy> detention.
[1:26 PM]<daniel_howe> demerits
[1:27 PM]<jasonnelson> I like to say that I have no freaking idea what
I am doing........and I suppose that is what makes this type of creaing
so exciting....that we are all, by default experimenting....
[1:27 PM]<sandy> there are merits but there is not tention
[1:27 PM]<sandy> it is true, your work is palpably exciting. "edge" is
a good adjective - it has edges.
[1:27 PM]<mldeed> have you gotten into the topic of using fictional
elements and applying them to your work?
[1:27 PM]<jasonnelson> and that really it wont be any of us that are
making the works that last....it will be the next wave......
[1:28 PM]<sandy> Jason, in terms of this, I'm still wondering about
influences as well. When you say "so few people write poetry I enjoy"
(not counting yourself)? Or other influences?
[1:28 PM]<jasonnelson> I had my first poetry class with Elizabeth
Robinson....anyone know of her work?
[1:28 PM]<sandy> Millie, good question about using fictional elements
and applying them to the work
[1:28 PM]<mldeed> Martha today
[1:28 PM]<sandy> Jason, don't know here myself. Context?
[1:29 PM]<sandy> sorry, martha
[1:29 PM]<jasonnelson> she is a second generation language poet.......
[1:29 PM]<sandy> a hah
[1:29 PM]<jasonnelson> part of that burning deck group
[1:29 PM]<daniel_howe> she won a big poetry prize a few years back,
yes?
[1:30 PM]<jasonnelson> not sure.....she was very catholic and thus we
never really bonded
[1:30 PM]<sandy> so, influence at a distance
[1:30 PM]<jasonnelson> not that I dont like catholics.....I jsut went
to a catholic HS....so you know....
[1:30 PM]<jasonnelson> but fictional elements......
[1:31 PM]<sandy> - yes, i still remember the jesuit fathers at my hs
[1:31 PM]<jasonnelson> I tend to use a lot of ficto biographry and
weird history
[1:32 PM]<jasonnelson> I used to sit in the stacks at the univesity of
oklahoma library and just pick out random books.....as long as they were
pre 1930
[1:32 PM]<mldeed> can you give an example?
[1:32 PM]<sandy> ficto biography: entirely made up? or
altered/fictionalized biography?
[1:33 PM]<jasonnelson> and I would look for old papers stuck in the
pages or try to find notations....and play as if the notations on a
physics book were connected to the notecard in a biography of
washington
[1:33 PM]<mldeed> for artistic purposes -- or to make a point?
[1:33 PM]<mldeed> cool
[1:33 PM]<jasonnelson> for artistic purposes....I loved it when the
pages in these old books were loose....I'd tear them off and steal them
away
[1:34 PM]<jasonnelson> in fact I am creating a new project now.....that
will be released as if it is real....want to hear about it?
[1:34 PM]<sandy> what draws you to those (notecards, notations). is it
that they're incidental, local, and singular - unlike the book they're
appearing in?
[1:34 PM]<sandy> yes tell, do
[1:35 PM]<jasonnelson> I love the idea of secret lives.....that we all
have these strange little spaces in which we hide.......and that all
events are connected to every other event....so these found bits are
evidence of those
[1:36 PM]<jasonnelson> but the new project.....bascially     I  'find'
a report called words that kill
[1:36 PM]<jasonnelson> it was written in 1947       and is six pages
long...with the 5th page missing
[1:37 PM]<jasonnelson> the report details experiments where word
combinations...using relative volumes and certain sequences have mental
and physical impacts on people.......unrelated seemingly to the words
meanings
[1:38 PM]<jasonnelson> so the project acts as if I just found these
documents....with me being a 24 year old middle manager and how me and
my friends have been trying these word combinations
[1:38 PM]<sandy> wow
[1:38 PM]<daniel_howe> cool
[1:39 PM]<jasonnelson> I've been weathering paper and created a flash
interface  to "test" the word combinations.......it is all really
creepy
[1:39 PM]<mldeed> but very interesting
[1:39 PM]<daniel_howe> ggod luck getting beta-testers...  
[1:39 PM]<daniel_howe> good*
[1:39 PM]<sandy> word magic. a bit like burroughs interest in engrams.
we should all test it.
[1:39 PM]<jasonnelson> g-god.....
[1:40 PM]<sandy> gee god
[1:40 PM]<daniel_howe> those studies that measure performance on
various tests after listening to different composers
[1:40 PM]<jasonnelson> actually I need some none australian
voices....so maybe you all can help by recording a few words
[1:40 PM]<mldeed> do you see it as primarily text-based then and using
the web.art technology to make it work?
[1:41 PM]<daniel_howe> as long the combinations are innocuous
[1:41 PM]<mldeed> would love to -- mix of downstate NY and midwestern
US twang
[1:41 PM]<sandy> jason, earlier you remarked about "and that really it
wont be any of us that are making the works that last....it will be the
next wave......" Can you talk about that more? What do you think of the
current state of e-poetry? What about the drive to identify works that
last? What should be done at this point...?
[1:42 PM]<sandy> yes, we lend our words -
[1:42 PM]<jasonnelson> I want my all my works to seem both amatuerish 
and deep....to be messy and polished....to be wow inspiring and
irritating.......which really reflects like
[1:42 PM]<jasonnelson> reflects life
[1:42 PM]<mldeed> isn't the problem with trying to make works that last
-- that one falls into pomposity or convention?
[1:43 PM]<sandy> - how, for example, to respond to autostart and the
elo collection?
[1:44 PM]<jasonnelson> strangely there seem to be more people writing
about e-poetry than actually making it
[1:44 PM]<jasonnelson> which is so very strange
[1:44 PM]<daniel_howe> this certainly does seem the case...
[1:44 PM]<mldeed> I've noticed
[1:45 PM]<daniel_howe> have you done any critical writing/thinking
about your own work?
[1:45 PM]<mldeed> ELO collection is kind of neat tho-- we're in it, but
not because we did something to last
[1:46 PM]<sandy> is the sense that there are more writing about it than
doing it a matter of definition though? my sense is that there's a
tremendous amount in lists and other environments that is - for me -
digitalpoetic - but might not last, might not present itself as a work,
etc.
[1:46 PM]<daniel_howe> it makes sense as a teaching tool i think, but
there is something aobut the impulse to 'canonize' that troubles...
[1:46 PM]<jasonnelson> I've tried....sort of....but I tend to want to
want to either write poetically or tell a story....and I know so very
little about theory.......my reading tends to be everything from
astrophysics to the watchtower magazine (beautifully creep) and comic
books
[1:47 PM]<mldeed> too much thinking about it can turn it stale or
reduce it to polemics, I think
[1:47 PM]<daniel_howe> i think john cayley is one of the few who
manages this balance well...
[1:47 PM]<jasonnelson> yeah I agree with the hating the canon....damn
iron ballls.....lopping off legs and booming throught the branches
[1:47 PM]<sandy> - i find theory applied to epoetry tends to be the
same thing over and over, in which case it leads to the same thing -
[1:47 PM]<sandy> yes cayley does well, subtle
[1:48 PM]<jasonnelson> or stephanie rocks at that
[1:48 PM]<jasonnelson> so what do you kids think about jump starting
e-poetry?
[1:48 PM]<sandy> but jason, why not a story mode? just as you work is
amateurish and deep, so about a blurring of what is the work and what
its edge, why not with critical writing
[1:49 PM]<jasonnelson> I mean.....to sounds like a tall poppy (what
aussies call arrogant people)...I've had over 2.5 million hits on my
site this year....and so there is interest....with most of those folks
coming from outside the artworld or academia
[1:49 PM]<sandy> - i think anything adds to the field, so certainly
things should be done -
[1:49 PM]<mldeed> standards for critical writing are fairly rigid.  If
you try to play with it, people get offended
[1:51 PM]<jasonnelson> ............maybe that is part of the
problem....that artists/poets feel like they have to write critically
first........and that keeps them from being adventurous
[1:51 PM]<jasonnelson> or keeps them from exploring without
thinking........
[1:51 PM]<mldeed> millie and I did a wild piece Usability Chronicles
which was royally hated by academids and is now close to being buried
[1:51 PM]<sandy> i'm not sure, martha, you may be right, but there are
good models of hybrid/transgressive critical/theoretical work:
sondheim's work, perhaps - of course, he does offend - but poetics in
general. why can't it all be part of the project - all forms of
experimentation
[1:52 PM]<mldeed> one of the best things we ever did in terms of
technique and goofiness
[1:52 PM]<jasonnelson> it should be...........I just think that people
are a bit scared.......to jump in....like they have to first find some
secret knowledge
[1:52 PM]<daniel_howe> probably not worth much if it doesnt offend
someone  
[1:52 PM]<sandy> some of this is: who is the writing and work for?
[1:52 PM]<mldeed> best not to offend all the editors, though
[1:53 PM]<jasonnelson> what editors?     how many journals are out
there who take e-lit?
[1:53 PM]<sandy> yeees, agreed, but there are so many venues. depends
on what we want.
[1:53 PM]<sandy> lots of journals surely? do you mean print?
[1:54 PM]<jasonnelson> we should from a new type of journal.....I mean
journals....either web based or cd that can take this type of work
[1:54 PM]<sandy> certainly. i'm especially interesteed in hybrid
theory/performance/wurkx
[1:54 PM]<jasonnelson> you know who is at the forefront of what we
do.....the spanish and portugese
[1:54 PM]<sandy> - jason, you've been hoping/wanting this for a while.
[1:55 PM]<jasonnelson> I know......I just have no organizational
skills....so I find it hard to do it myself
[1:55 PM]<sandy> hm, serious? i thought portugal was pretty quiet on
this? (the impression i got from manuel p yesterday)
[1:55 PM]<mldeed> Brazil
[1:55 PM]<daniel_howe> do you mean the brasilian (portuguese-speaking)
scene?
[1:55 PM]<sandy> - brazil certainly
[1:56 PM]<jasonnelson> yeah....and there are other folks in peru or
argen....
[1:56 PM]<jasonnelson> did you know that there is an award for e-lit in
spain?
[1:56 PM]<sandy> - but, for example, this is one mode of elit
production right here - we're doing it now -
[1:56 PM]<sandy> really, in spain? cool, from where?
[1:56 PM]<jasonnelson> 2,500 eruos
[1:56 PM]<jasonnelson> I won last year
[1:56 PM]<sandy> good money
[1:56 PM]<daniel_howe> we've had them here as well...
[1:57 PM]<jasonnelson> hold on I'll find the url
[1:57 PM]<daniel_howe> a $10k i vaguely remember...
[1:57 PM]<sandy> daniel, you mean elit awards here? like the elo one?
[1:57 PM]<daniel_howe> yes, 2001 i think it was...
[1:58 PM]<daniel_howe> cayley got one of the two...
[1:58 PM]<jasonnelson> http://www.uoc.edu/press/wp-print.php?p=1 
[1:58 PM]<sandy> yes, there were a few years of it and then the money
ran out.
[1:58 PM]<daniel_howe> and 'waves of girls'
[1:59 PM]<jasonnelson> but the ELO has no more money............last of
the dot com cash...Scott was able to rustle
[1:59 PM]<sandy> jason - that's interesting a distance ed place.
[1:59 PM]<jasonnelson> so...maybe we could team up and offer another
award....get Maryland and Brown and WV and Buffalo and Griffith (here in
australia) to pitch in
[2:00 PM]<sandy> yes, elo keeps trying to reinvent itself. i'm
perpetually fascinating by the shifting between elo - epoetry - other
groups, none of which quite overlap.
[2:00 PM]<sandy> que possible.
[2:00 PM]<daniel_howe> good luck w brown...
[2:00 PM]<daniel_howe> but interesting idea...
[2:00 PM]<sandy> I'm not sure though. an award would create a
chronicle, highlights, etc.
[2:01 PM]<sandy> but is that what's needed now?
[2:01 PM]<sandy> personally, i'd rather create places/centers for
collaborative creation, for exchanging ideas, for posting work, etc. -
though again, an award might stimulate that?
[2:02 PM]<jasonnelson> well I think we should take a two veined
approach.....one is to build some stable venues and such......so that
the academic route can have its sign posts.....and then have a more
important and exciting agenda of actually sending work out into the
world
[2:02 PM]<mldeed> that seems right to me, Jason -
[2:03 PM]<mldeed> and you never know -- one of the current venues may
end up doing just that
[2:03 PM]<sandy> agreed, and certainly an award might facilitate that -
even a non-monetary award. e.g. announcements of top ten lists or
something like that, as a way of organizing what's happening,
structuring the discourse
[2:03 PM]<mldeed> I think of Regina's Museum of the Essential and
Beyond That as one possibility
[2:04 PM]<jasonnelson> there really is an interest....a strong interest
in interesting net based artwork.....and writing.....I'm always suprised
at how some of my work ends up on car collector sites or real estate
agencies blogs
[2:05 PM]<sandy> - and a need, i would add, to really identify the
dynamics of netbased writing, to chronicle it and how it moves.
[2:05 PM]<daniel_howe> thanks so much all, have to run to catch train
to pvd
[2:05 PM]<sandy> and some value in focusing on that kind of work and
not other epoetries
[2:05 PM]<jasonnelson> when I think of print journals.....I'm always
saddened at how tight the grip is of some of the journals...I mean
shit.....POETRY has over 100 million in its coffers
[2:05 PM] daniel_howe has left the room.
[2:05 PM]<jasonnelson> can we convince them
[2:05 PM]<sandy> by daniel.
[2:06 PM]<mldeed> example of recognition yielding stodginess
unfortunately
[2:06 PM]<sandy> sure, funding is tough. recently, i'm trying to think
in terms of grants. the neh has big funds for digital humanities
projects, for example, and how to present this to them.
[2:06 PM]<jasonnelson> alas....well at least we all should team up in
some way.........and to brainstorm about ways to build the field....and
to attract crazy rich people and convince them to fund us
[2:07 PM]<mldeed> true
[2:07 PM]<jasonnelson> why are we getting support from amazon or google
or yahoo?
[2:07 PM]<jasonnelson> do either of you know anyone at those
companies?
[2:07 PM]<sandy> i think a lot is possible free or inexpensively
[2:07 PM]<sandy> no not at those
[2:07 PM]<mldeed> nope
[2:08 PM]<sandy> i wonder about support from say adobe. they fund some
digital humanities projects.
[2:08 PM]<sandy> or perhaps macromedia.
[2:08 PM]<jasonnelson> hey before we leave....I wanted to invite the
two of you to enter some text into this new creation
[2:08 PM]<mldeed> those are interesting models, Jason.  I think they
support them with advertising contracts
[2:09 PM]<mldeed> I would love to, Jason
[2:09 PM]<sandy> ok, tell how.
[2:09 PM]<jasonnelson>
http://www.secrettechnology.com/terribledays.html 
[2:09 PM]<sandy> Any special intructions?
[2:09 PM]<mldeed> I'll go there soon -- and Millie, too, I suspect
[2:10 PM]<jasonnelson> please send this to anyone and everyone
[2:10 PM]<sandy> Jason, many thanks for chatting. Anything else that
you want to mention before we sign off?
[2:10 PM]<jasonnelson> the instructions are on the page
[2:10 PM]<mldeed> this has been q great conversation -- sorry I missed
the first half
[2:10 PM]<mldeed> very good, Jason
[2:10 PM]<sandy> I'll post a transcript of the entire discussion.
[2:10 PM]<mldeed> thanks Sandy
[2:11 PM]<jasonnelson> ok.....and thanks sandy for all your work on
this....and martha and daniel thanks for joining......I hope these build
into regular talks
[2:11 PM]<sandy> OK, Jason, I probably should push off and it must be
late there in australia - 4am? I do intend to keep scheduling talks
above and beyond the leonardo issue. So, keep tuned.
[2:11 PM]<mldeed> so do I.  They work well when we are able to talk
about the issues in some depth
[2:12 PM]<jasonnelson> and sandy............do let me know about coming
to WV early next year....already signed up to NJIT in late Jan with
Chris F.
[2:12 PM]<sandy> I will send out some thoughts and proposals early next
week - this is the final chat.
[2:12 PM]<sandy> Jason - let me know when you're coming. I think I
mentioned the limitations on $$ but if you let me know the dates I can
do what I can,
[2:13 PM]<jasonnelson> willl do and thanks ten billion
[2:13 PM]<mldeed> Bye
[2:13 PM]<sandy> Bye and thanks.
[2:13 PM]<jasonnelson> and the last words shall be   'on screen and
aqua holice'
[2:13 PM]<mldeed> holice?

<end transcript>

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