Culturally, it is very difficult to get the tone of voice right in a
second language. Biloxi did say English was not his first language, so
his unusual tone of voice at times must be expected. I can tell you
the subtleties of speaking Mandarin here are many: to thank someone is
sometimes insulting! I thanked a Chinese colleague, and she apparently
replied (I don't speak enough Mandarin to understand) 'Why do you say
that? We are friends!' The social framework applies to language as
well.

I know what you mean, Roger, about posting the poem elsewhere, but I
wasn't offended. I tend to think poems displayed on lists and on the
Net are open to exchange (wrong word, but you know what I mean) no
matter how many rules of courtesy we weave around them. I post poems,
accepting those dangers. Back channel I had to apologise to Biloxi for
putting his 'chant' up on my blog without first asking his permission.
I did ask permission - after. He graciously said, Go ahead.

Now can we get back to poetry? Was it Zukovsky who said, The true
study of poetry is the poem itself (paraphrase only)?

Off to teach the History of the English Language now. The class is one
hour 40 minutes long. I compress a lot!

Andrew


On 13/10/06, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Biloxi (is that your name?), happy you reacted so positively. I can
> empathise with hostile/pressurised environments creating shifts in
> mood & even opinion, having long been a part of such an environment
> (elsewhere, hehe). I look forward to your reply.  :)
>
> K     S
>
> On 13/10/06, biloxi andersen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Hi Kapser. Great post. I love it. Exemplary tact and wonderful
> > intelligence. I read it but won't reply right now 'cos I'm tired. I
> > don't feel obliged to reply either as I feel a reverence for what you
> > said and on the face of it don't feel I need to have a problem with
> > it. I must say that post I made initially was provoked by bad
> > experience I had on "The Pennine Poetry Works"
> > <[log in to unmask]>, I unsubscribed from that list now. I
> > hesitate to badmouth people but I had nothing good and nothing but
> > trouble from that mailing list, though it's perhaps a tenth the size
> > of this one, and nothing but a wonderful experience here. I think that
> > bad experience might've driven me to an extreme.
> >
> >
> > On 10/12/06, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > "I don't think anyone is in a position to 'critique' my stuff, just
> > > like I'm not in a position to critique theirs."
> > >
> > > I find that a close-minded & destructive attitude. of course a writer
> > > should never attempt to tailor his work to an (imagined) audience's
> > > generalised desires, but I couldn't ever imagine learning or
> > > progressing as a writer without the input of others. 'input', meaning
> > > the interpretations, connotations, sound-connections, tones that
> > > someone reading my work finds him/herself tossing in their head. their
> > > reactions aren't some rulebook I then consult & follow; I don't follow
> > > advice I don't agree with. they're points of view. if a writer's point
> > > of view never changes, the writing (or its quality) also never
> > > changes. I'm of the opinion, as you are, that we learn most through
> > > practice; but what's the point in practicing it from from vantage
> > > point? sounds to me like practicing, for years, to paint a picture
> > > from just one single angle. the lighting & the colours also can't
> > > alternate that much, let alone develop, because it's a single space
> > > from a single place. I know that analogies from visual art are used
> > > way too often when speaking of literary theory, but it communicates
> > > what I mean in this instance.
> > > & when it comes to practice, isn't most gained through a _discourse_?
> > > when one learns, teaches & re-learns all at once, the benefits are
> > > notable; & that isn't possible without a position counter, or at least
> > > dissimilar, to the writer's own.
> > >
> > > of course, this all depends on whether the writer wishes to improve or
> > > not; & whether the writer writes "for themseves" or not. I think
> > > writing for oneself (ONLY**) is ridiculous, but I respect people who
> > > can explain to me why they _don't_ think it is. I will very probably
> > > not agree, but maybe the opinion I offer in return will make the
> > > person consider some of the things connected to their practice of the
> > > craft.
> > >
> > > ** I mean this in the sense that one writes a poem & never shows it to
> > > anyone; I do write 'for myself', increasingly so, but language is
> > > meaningless if it isn't used in a dialogue of SOME kind. one cannot
> > > have a dialogue with oneself, that's a monologue (& it's monochrome,
> > > in my opinion).
> > >
> > > "That's really the only 'critique' I could give to someone."
> > >
> > > here's my take. when one is able to write well, one is able to
> > > identify connections & methods. this is a given. in being able to
> > > identify these things in their own work -- before, during & after a
> > > poem is written by them -- they will also be able to identify them (or
> > > their lack) in the work of others. to point out the presence or lack
> > > of those qualities, & the effect that it has on a/the piece, is
> > > critique. one might deduce from this that to be able to write is to be
> > > able to critique.
> > >
> > > returning to the idea of being in the 'position' to critique: that
> > > belittles the person reading the poem, making them separate from some
> > > mythical 'realm' from whence the poetry is drawn, & it elevates the
> > > writer of the poem to the position of Creator, who is also in a
> > > separate realm & is also therefore untouchable. both extremes are
> > > false & fruitless. that rings untrue with poetry itself, in my
> > > opinion: everything separated.
> > > if that piece (beginning 'Disposable scripture / In the moment..') is
> > > the result of such thinking, I'm not surprised: it strikes me less as
> > > poetry & more as nihilistic philosophising. one of my first & most
> > > important lessons learned concerning the craft is that philosophy &
> > > poetry are not the same thing, & seldom mix well.
> > >
> > > this is all my POINT OF VIEW, to be ignored or acknowledged as your
> > > management of _your_ point of view allows. I'm also open to discussion
> > > on why & where you disagree with my disagreement. :)
> > >
> > > KS
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Her Lust is Wiser is a book of verse by Biloxi Andersen and Ziad
> > Noureddine. It is part of ongoing diaries.
> > http://inkatthedevil.blogspot.com/
> >
>


-- 
Andrew
http://hispirits.blogspot.com/
http://www.bam.com.au/andrew