OK I apologise for my intolerance. If it all came about as a genuine mistake then I'm sorry for 
Biloxi and the others involved (who I know well and are genuinely polite and helpful people). I 
do think though that it is wiser not to post on a list until one understands what the list is 
really about, especially as the tonal quality of emails can leave a lot to be desired as far as 
interpretation is concerned.

Roger Collett

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joanna Boulter" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: Please excuse me from "critique" duties


> To be fair, Roger, Biloxi's post reads to me as though it was a question of having been 
> irritated by an exchange on The Works and consequently being in a bad mood when it came to 
> posting to Poetryetc, rather than a case of carrying this particular discussion across onto 
> another list.  I'm not convinced that's an excuse, but it's not as bad as what you're 
> complaining of here.
>
> It does take a while to 'learn the ropes' on different lists.
>
> joanna
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roger Collett" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 11:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Please excuse me from "critique" duties
>
>
>> Congratulations on upsetting the only list I know that has not had any flame wars before. 
>> Also
>> the breach of list etiquette in posting items from this list on another is reprehensible 
>> IMNSHO.
>> Did you ask Andrew's permission to post his work on another list? Which is not a discussion 
>> list
>> btw but a workshopping list with all that implies about authorship. Basically I heartily
>> disapprove.
>>
>> Roger Collett
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "biloxi andersen" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 10:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: Please excuse me from "critique" duties
>>
>>
>>> Hi Kapser. Great post. I love it. Exemplary tact and wonderful
>>> intelligence. I read it but won't reply right now 'cos I'm tired. I
>>> don't feel obliged to reply either as I feel a reverence for what you
>>> said and on the face of it don't feel I need to have a problem with
>>> it. I must say that post I made initially was provoked by bad
>>> experience I had on "The Pennine Poetry Works"
>>> <[log in to unmask]>, I unsubscribed from that list now. I
>>> hesitate to badmouth people but I had nothing good and nothing but
>>> trouble from that mailing list, though it's perhaps a tenth the size
>>> of this one, and nothing but a wonderful experience here. I think that
>>> bad experience might've driven me to an extreme.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/12/06, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> "I don't think anyone is in a position to 'critique' my stuff, just
>>>> like I'm not in a position to critique theirs."
>>>>
>>>> I find that a close-minded & destructive attitude. of course a writer
>>>> should never attempt to tailor his work to an (imagined) audience's
>>>> generalised desires, but I couldn't ever imagine learning or
>>>> progressing as a writer without the input of others. 'input', meaning
>>>> the interpretations, connotations, sound-connections, tones that
>>>> someone reading my work finds him/herself tossing in their head. their
>>>> reactions aren't some rulebook I then consult & follow; I don't follow
>>>> advice I don't agree with. they're points of view. if a writer's point
>>>> of view never changes, the writing (or its quality) also never
>>>> changes. I'm of the opinion, as you are, that we learn most through
>>>> practice; but what's the point in practicing it from from vantage
>>>> point? sounds to me like practicing, for years, to paint a picture
>>>> from just one single angle. the lighting & the colours also can't
>>>> alternate that much, let alone develop, because it's a single space
>>>> from a single place. I know that analogies from visual art are used
>>>> way too often when speaking of literary theory, but it communicates
>>>> what I mean in this instance.
>>>> & when it comes to practice, isn't most gained through a _discourse_?
>>>> when one learns, teaches & re-learns all at once, the benefits are
>>>> notable; & that isn't possible without a position counter, or at least
>>>> dissimilar, to the writer's own.
>>>>
>>>> of course, this all depends on whether the writer wishes to improve or
>>>> not; & whether the writer writes "for themseves" or not. I think
>>>> writing for oneself (ONLY**) is ridiculous, but I respect people who
>>>> can explain to me why they _don't_ think it is. I will very probably
>>>> not agree, but maybe the opinion I offer in return will make the
>>>> person consider some of the things connected to their practice of the
>>>> craft.
>>>>
>>>> ** I mean this in the sense that one writes a poem & never shows it to
>>>> anyone; I do write 'for myself', increasingly so, but language is
>>>> meaningless if it isn't used in a dialogue of SOME kind. one cannot
>>>> have a dialogue with oneself, that's a monologue (& it's monochrome,
>>>> in my opinion).
>>>>
>>>> "That's really the only 'critique' I could give to someone."
>>>>
>>>> here's my take. when one is able to write well, one is able to
>>>> identify connections & methods. this is a given. in being able to
>>>> identify these things in their own work -- before, during & after a
>>>> poem is written by them -- they will also be able to identify them (or
>>>> their lack) in the work of others. to point out the presence or lack
>>>> of those qualities, & the effect that it has on a/the piece, is
>>>> critique. one might deduce from this that to be able to write is to be
>>>> able to critique.
>>>>
>>>> returning to the idea of being in the 'position' to critique: that
>>>> belittles the person reading the poem, making them separate from some
>>>> mythical 'realm' from whence the poetry is drawn, & it elevates the
>>>> writer of the poem to the position of Creator, who is also in a
>>>> separate realm & is also therefore untouchable. both extremes are
>>>> false & fruitless. that rings untrue with poetry itself, in my
>>>> opinion: everything separated.
>>>> if that piece (beginning 'Disposable scripture / In the moment..') is
>>>> the result of such thinking, I'm not surprised: it strikes me less as
>>>> poetry & more as nihilistic philosophising. one of my first & most
>>>> important lessons learned concerning the craft is that philosophy &
>>>> poetry are not the same thing, & seldom mix well.
>>>>
>>>> this is all my POINT OF VIEW, to be ignored or acknowledged as your
>>>> management of _your_ point of view allows. I'm also open to discussion
>>>> on why & where you disagree with my disagreement. :)
>>>>
>>>> KS
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Her Lust is Wiser is a book of verse by Biloxi Andersen and Ziad
>>> Noureddine. It is part of ongoing diaries.
>>> http://inkatthedevil.blogspot.com/
>>> --
>>> This email has been verified as Virus free
>>> Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net
>>>
>>
> --
> This email has been verified as Virus free
> Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net