To be fair, Roger, Biloxi's post reads to me as though it was a question of
having been irritated by an exchange on The Works and consequently being in
a bad mood when it came to posting to Poetryetc, rather than a case of
carrying this particular discussion across onto another list. I'm not
convinced that's an excuse, but it's not as bad as what you're complaining
of here.
It does take a while to 'learn the ropes' on different lists.
joanna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Collett" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: Please excuse me from "critique" duties
> Congratulations on upsetting the only list I know that has not had any
> flame wars before. Also
> the breach of list etiquette in posting items from this list on another is
> reprehensible IMNSHO.
> Did you ask Andrew's permission to post his work on another list? Which is
> not a discussion list
> btw but a workshopping list with all that implies about authorship.
> Basically I heartily
> disapprove.
>
> Roger Collett
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "biloxi andersen" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 10:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Please excuse me from "critique" duties
>
>
>> Hi Kapser. Great post. I love it. Exemplary tact and wonderful
>> intelligence. I read it but won't reply right now 'cos I'm tired. I
>> don't feel obliged to reply either as I feel a reverence for what you
>> said and on the face of it don't feel I need to have a problem with
>> it. I must say that post I made initially was provoked by bad
>> experience I had on "The Pennine Poetry Works"
>> <[log in to unmask]>, I unsubscribed from that list now. I
>> hesitate to badmouth people but I had nothing good and nothing but
>> trouble from that mailing list, though it's perhaps a tenth the size
>> of this one, and nothing but a wonderful experience here. I think that
>> bad experience might've driven me to an extreme.
>>
>>
>> On 10/12/06, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> "I don't think anyone is in a position to 'critique' my stuff, just
>>> like I'm not in a position to critique theirs."
>>>
>>> I find that a close-minded & destructive attitude. of course a writer
>>> should never attempt to tailor his work to an (imagined) audience's
>>> generalised desires, but I couldn't ever imagine learning or
>>> progressing as a writer without the input of others. 'input', meaning
>>> the interpretations, connotations, sound-connections, tones that
>>> someone reading my work finds him/herself tossing in their head. their
>>> reactions aren't some rulebook I then consult & follow; I don't follow
>>> advice I don't agree with. they're points of view. if a writer's point
>>> of view never changes, the writing (or its quality) also never
>>> changes. I'm of the opinion, as you are, that we learn most through
>>> practice; but what's the point in practicing it from from vantage
>>> point? sounds to me like practicing, for years, to paint a picture
>>> from just one single angle. the lighting & the colours also can't
>>> alternate that much, let alone develop, because it's a single space
>>> from a single place. I know that analogies from visual art are used
>>> way too often when speaking of literary theory, but it communicates
>>> what I mean in this instance.
>>> & when it comes to practice, isn't most gained through a _discourse_?
>>> when one learns, teaches & re-learns all at once, the benefits are
>>> notable; & that isn't possible without a position counter, or at least
>>> dissimilar, to the writer's own.
>>>
>>> of course, this all depends on whether the writer wishes to improve or
>>> not; & whether the writer writes "for themseves" or not. I think
>>> writing for oneself (ONLY**) is ridiculous, but I respect people who
>>> can explain to me why they _don't_ think it is. I will very probably
>>> not agree, but maybe the opinion I offer in return will make the
>>> person consider some of the things connected to their practice of the
>>> craft.
>>>
>>> ** I mean this in the sense that one writes a poem & never shows it to
>>> anyone; I do write 'for myself', increasingly so, but language is
>>> meaningless if it isn't used in a dialogue of SOME kind. one cannot
>>> have a dialogue with oneself, that's a monologue (& it's monochrome,
>>> in my opinion).
>>>
>>> "That's really the only 'critique' I could give to someone."
>>>
>>> here's my take. when one is able to write well, one is able to
>>> identify connections & methods. this is a given. in being able to
>>> identify these things in their own work -- before, during & after a
>>> poem is written by them -- they will also be able to identify them (or
>>> their lack) in the work of others. to point out the presence or lack
>>> of those qualities, & the effect that it has on a/the piece, is
>>> critique. one might deduce from this that to be able to write is to be
>>> able to critique.
>>>
>>> returning to the idea of being in the 'position' to critique: that
>>> belittles the person reading the poem, making them separate from some
>>> mythical 'realm' from whence the poetry is drawn, & it elevates the
>>> writer of the poem to the position of Creator, who is also in a
>>> separate realm & is also therefore untouchable. both extremes are
>>> false & fruitless. that rings untrue with poetry itself, in my
>>> opinion: everything separated.
>>> if that piece (beginning 'Disposable scripture / In the moment..') is
>>> the result of such thinking, I'm not surprised: it strikes me less as
>>> poetry & more as nihilistic philosophising. one of my first & most
>>> important lessons learned concerning the craft is that philosophy &
>>> poetry are not the same thing, & seldom mix well.
>>>
>>> this is all my POINT OF VIEW, to be ignored or acknowledged as your
>>> management of _your_ point of view allows. I'm also open to discussion
>>> on why & where you disagree with my disagreement. :)
>>>
>>> KS
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Her Lust is Wiser is a book of verse by Biloxi Andersen and Ziad
>> Noureddine. It is part of ongoing diaries.
>> http://inkatthedevil.blogspot.com/
>> --
>> This email has been verified as Virus free
>> Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net
>>
>
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