I share Bob's view here - the critical task is one of construction, and 
that typically means building with shoddy materials, using inadequate 
tools, to construct something better - while being fully aware of the 
limitations, and rejecting those materials and tools that are too 
inadequate, dangerous or that give misleading information.
Community psychology emerged in a set of particular contexts - hence its 
diversity. It arose in opposition to other forms of psychology, hence 
its typically critical (but also constructive) orientation. However that 
particularity to context also suggests that we might also productively 
talk of societal psychology, really social psychology, materialist 
social psychology, and so on instead of the overworked labels community 
and critical psychology (or clinical too?) which are over-saturated with 
meanings. Just as we want to oppose the error of individualism we might 
also want to be wary of the communitarian error too (that ignores the 
wider social system). The challenge is to be able to engage in 
progressive ways (no apologies for that term) with distress and 
oppression whether we find it at a personal, community or social system 
level.

I write as one who trained and practised as a clinical psychologist but 
always felt uncomfortable there and who therefore always sought other 
ways of working - with the result that I've ended up as a bureaucrat in 
a large public service. There aren't easy answers and obvious paths.


Diamond Bob wrote:
>
> Hi David and all
>
> Just a couple of quick points. There’s tons to be irritated about the 
> way in which the profession of clinical psychology is going and I’m 
> probably one of the last people that should attempt any defence of the 
> profession due to things I have said elsewhere. Such discussions don’t 
> overly interest me, what does interest me is the sense I sometimes 
> have from reading postings on this list that leave me with a sense of, 
> let’s see who can be the most critical, or am I being sufficiently 
> critical and if not, perhaps I better keep my mouth shut. My limited 
> understanding of a dialectical process suggests there should be a 
> synthesis following critique and the antithesis. I do think we have 
> lots to share, lots to learn from one another and lots in common, I 
> hope we will be able to put some of our energies in to doing things 
> together which will inevitably (but that’s ok) have its limits and 
> critiques.
>
> I recently came across a couple of great musical talents, Steffan 
> Hannigan who plays with Sin E (which incidentally means That’s it) and 
> Gilad Atzman. They both make noises that could equally be called jazz 
> or folk. The trendies refer to them as fusions from jazz, folk, 
> African and Indian rythyms. Personally I’d be delighted to hear that 
> in any forum.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* The UK Community Psychology Discussion List 
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *David Fryer
> *Sent:* 16 August 2006 21:57
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] service user involvement and 
> survivor action conference - keeping it critical
>
> Bob you wrote you should not have to feel you "have to apologise 
> constantly for my very professional existence" and Annie you wrote 
> "sometimes I feel that there is a bit of competition going on between 
> clinical and community perspectives on this list".
>
> Let me make it clear that I am not seeking to exclude clinical 
> psychologists from this list, not suggesting discussion of clinical 
> psychology is inappropriate on this list and I am not totally hostile 
> to clinical psychology in all manifestations (I confess to having some 
> good friends who are clinical psychologists and a UK psychologists 
> whose thinking and practice I very greatly admire (Miller Mair) is a 
> clinical psychologist).
>
> That said to me you both miss the point of having a //community 
> psychology// list like this one. There are, no doubt, all sorts of 
> frames of reference in which clinical psychology is defensible and 
> unproblematic but surely a (critical) community psychological frame of 
> reference is not one of these.
>
> I can see why clinical psychologists might want to join a //clinical// 
> psychology discussion list for articulating clinically friendly frames 
> of reference and within which they would seldom have to feel 
> apologetic for being a clinical psychologist and seldom have to face 
> competition from an alternative perspective - just as I can see why 
> folk musicians would join a folk music society where they would not 
> have to feel apologetic for not playing jazz or face competition from 
> jazz musicians. However I think a folk musician joining a jazz society 
> would not really be able to complain if jazz musicians were not 
> interested in playing folk or approached music from a very different 
> set of assumptions about music.
>
> On the other hand, I can see good reasons why clinical psychologists 
> might want to join a //community// psychology list to engage with 
> critiques of clinical psychology from a //community psychology// frame 
> of reference and face competition for clinical ways of understanding 
> and practicising from others committed to community psychology. But 
> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK is after all a community psychology list so clinical 
> psychology list members should surely not be surprised when that happens.
>
> So whether it is 'ok to be a clinical psychologist, one who values, 
> appreciates and strives at least some of the time to put some of the 
> ideas from community and critical theories into practice" perhaps 
> depends whether one is thinking from within a clinical or a community 
> psychology frame of reference and whether you are challenged when you 
> assert such a statement depends whether you assert it on a clinical or 
> a community psychology list?
>
> David
>
> David Fryer
> Community Psychology Group
> University of Stirling
> FK9 4LA
> Scotland
> +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
> +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
> [log in to unmask]
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     *From:* The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>     [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Diamond Bob
>     *Sent:* 16 August 2006 4:05 pm
>     *To:* [log in to unmask]
>     *Subject:* Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] service user involvement and
>     survivor action conference - keeping it critical
>
>     Hi Annie and all
>
>     Thinking about your last couple of sentences Annie, just thought
>     I’d add the following.
>
>     For me, it’s ok to be a clinical psychologist, one who values,
>     appreciates and strives at least some of the time to put some of
>     the ideas from community and critical theories into practice.
>     Furthermore, it’s ok to be a clinical psychologist, someone who
>     opposes the inhuman and unhelpful approaches of reductionism both
>     psychiatry and to some extent psychotherapies endorse without
>     feeling I have to apologise constantly for my very professional
>     existence.
>
>     Humility and modesty yes, but obsequious perpetual prostrate
>     apologies simply lead to backache.
>
>     Bob Diamond
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     *From:* The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>     [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Annie Mitchell
>     *Sent:* 04 August 2006 14:06
>     *To:* [log in to unmask]
>     *Subject:* Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] service user involvement and
>     survivor action conference - keeping it critical
>
>     Hi David,
>
>     I see that the advert has come out in The Psychologist for the BPS
>     College of Fellows day on Promoting Mental Health and Well-being
>     in Communities in London on Tuesday 2rd October . ( further
>     information on www.bps.org.uk/collegeoffellows
>     <http://www.bps.org.uk/collegeoffellows>) I think you mentioned a
>     while back that you were involved in organising this – sounds a
>     great day – do you have a flyer you could post on this discussion
>     list so we could forward it to others with whom we are linked? For
>     example there are some community members in the Southwest
>     Community Psychology Network who I think would be very keen to
>     hear the excellent community activist with whom you will be
>     presenting, Cathy McCormack. Some of our members have a good deal
>     of interest in social housing issues ( from a rural perspective in
>     Devon) and I think Cathy would be a wonderful inspiration. Would
>     there be a mechanism for financial support for attendance for
>     those who are unwaged?
>
>     On another topic; the southwest network, inspired by community
>     members, have begun exploring the relationships between
>     psychology, community psychology, business and community concerns
>     and contributions to the sustainability and climate change agenda.
>     I think this is an example of dealing with issues that go beyond/
>     wider than a focus on distress.
>
>     David, it is useful to remind us of the regular and narrowing
>     default of those of us who are clinical and community
>     psychologists on distress and suffering … thanks.
>
>     Whose interests are being served by this posting of mine? I must
>     acknowledge that in part I am promoting my own interests, as I
>     want to challenge the critical implications in your posting that
>     clinical psychologists may not be ready/ able to take a wider
>     perspective ..I want to promote a more positive and inclusive
>     vision and set of expectations for the professional identity I
>     share with others ( critical though I certainly am of very many
>     aspects of the profession and practice of clinical psychology and
>     of other medical/ clinically oriented professions) . It is hard to
>     work at the borders/ boundaries of disciplines and practices and I
>     believe it is most effective when we can challenge and debate
>     assumptions in an inclusive way, recognising that those of us on
>     this list ( and indeed in any social group) have differing and yet
>     overlapping social identities in all sorts of ways and that we are
>     struggling to do our best to promote social justice often within
>     social and organisational contexts and constraints that are very
>     challenging and limiting. Sometimes I feel that there is a bit of
>     competition going on between clinical and community perspectives
>     on this list – maybe that is healthy as long as we also look for
>     our commonalities too – I think it likely that we share more than
>     we differ, and I sometimes wonder if we focused more on what we
>     can do together we would be more effective? But I guess that
>     fragmentation has been a constant part of the history of
>     left-looking political movements.. ironically.
>
>     Annie
>
>     Annie
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     *From:* The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>     [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *David Fryer
>     *Sent:* 04 August 2006 13:28
>     *To:* [log in to unmask]
>     *Subject:* Re: service user involvement and survivor action
>     conference - keeping it critical
>
>     As regards keeping it critical . . . . might it be interesting to
>     unpick some of the issues?
>
>     As far as I am concerned the key aspect of keeping it critical is
>     the notion that ideas are not neutral in their implications for
>     different groups of people in society. As Marx and Engels put it
>     (in The German Ideology): "The ideas of the ruling class are in
>     every epoch the ruling ideas". Keeping it critical, for me, is
>     about keeping bringing to the surface the underlying ideas in any
>     piece of knowledge, theory or writing; checking whose interest are
>     being served by those ideas and how they function in the micro
>     politics of governance and trying to work within a framework of
>     ideas and to create ideas which promote social justice and trying
>     to challenge / contest ideas which hinder social justice or
>     promote social injustice. Regrettably, in my view, the various
>     manifestations of psychology in our society, particularly clinical
>     psychology, are a set of practices and theories etc which are
>     riddled with ideas which promote thing staying exactly as they are
>     i.e. unjust for the vast majority of people. Keeping it critical
>     would involve looking at texts like policies, newspaper articles,
>     scientific journal articles, films, photographs //and list posts//
>     and asking what systems of ideas underlie them and whose interests
>     are being served by them. So, keeping it critical, for me, in this
>     particular case, would involve asking what ideas are deployed
>     through, and whose interests do they serve, in this thread of posts.
>
>     There are many issues one could discuss re the specifics of the
>     way 'distress' has been used in 'the distress posts'. Some of
>     these have emerged in interesting posts by Craig and Gareth:
>     whether having experienced distress is a sensible and practically
>     feasible basis for offering free conference places; whether the
>     notion of mental distress is meaningless or whether distress by
>     definition can be anything other than phenomenological i.e. mental
>     in once sense; whether the notion of "individuals with direct
>     experience of distress" is less objectionable, more inclusive,
>     less stigmatising etc. and co-extensive with other phrases such as
>     "psychiatric patient", "mental health service user", "survivor of
>     the psy complex" etc. I am interested, critically here, in the
>     bigger project of distress being raised and discussed in a short
>     thread of posts on this list. Whilst we are all, no doubt,
>     concerned in various ways about distress, distress (mental health
>     / wellbeing) seems more central to
>     //clinical-//community-psychology than to other versions of
>     community-psychology, which are more concerned about social
>     injustice, cultural safety, exclusion, disabling practices,
>     internalisation of auto-oppressive discourses etc. People with
>     whom community psychologists work may be distressed but they may
>     not be - they may be unaware, unconcerned, angry, happy etc.
>
>     So keeping it critical, for me, in relation to distress, means
>     being open to the possibility that positioning ideas like
>     'distress' as central to the concerns of members of this
>     COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list is in the interests of those who would also
>     position a clinical version of community psychology as central to
>     UK community psychology and less in the interests of those seeking
>     to build a non-clinical community psychology which can tackles
>     social injustice rather than individual distress. That does not
>     mean that distress should not be discussed at all of course but
>     that it is important to keep any discussion of it critical!
>
>     David
>
>     David Fryer
>     Community Psychology Group
>     University of Stirling
>     FK9 4LA
>     Scotland
>     +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
>     +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
>     [log in to unmask]
>
>     David Fryer
>     Community Psychology Group
>     University of Stirling
>     FK9 4LA
>     Scotland
>     +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
>     +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
>     [log in to unmask]
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         *From:* The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>         [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Gareth
>         Foote
>         *Sent:* 04 August 2006 12:32 am
>         *To:* [log in to unmask]
>         *Subject:* Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] service user involvement and
>         survivor action conference
>
>         Thanks for bringing this back to the top Lesley.
>
>         While Craig's point is sound enough in terms of keeping it
>         critical, surely this ad is not to be mocked wholesale - I
>         understood it to be an attempt to avoid using terms many on
>         this list find objectionable - illness perhaps? or demanding
>         that people position themselves as 'service users' which some
>         might not? It seems the ad to which our attention was drawn
>         was seeking to avoid demanding that people fit into certain
>         boxes favored by the establishment, recognising that it is
>         possible to be a 'potential service user' but 'survive' by
>         other means (perhaps support of a community or community
>         psychology commensurate intiative such as self-help groups
>         etc) without submitting to being 'mentally ill', a service
>         user or a survivor, while equally not being forced to
>         pigeon-hole oneself otherwise (e.g. low waged or unemployed).
>         Perhaps Craig's point "Is there a soul alive who doesn't
>         experience distress?" is exactly that - the point. Seems about
>         as inclusive an invite to a MIND conference as I can imagine,
>         without saying free places for anyone.
>
>         I am intrigued by the reference to Ryle. Is this something to
>         do with CAT, there being 'no such thing as mental distress'? I
>         don't know much at all about Ryle, but I looked up distress in
>         Chambers, Collins and OED. All refer clearly to cause of
>         mental or emotional pain or suffering without attributing
>         cause, so for me a connotation is external cause, which given
>         a value of this list - to challenge individualising and
>         internalisation - seems OK to me. Rather than illness (inward)
>         why not distress (outsight)? If not distress, then what? Could
>         Craig or anyone point to where I could find out more about
>         Ryle's point please?
>
>         ----- Original Message ----
>         From: Cohen Lesley <[log in to unmask]>
>         To: [log in to unmask]
>         Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2006 11:49:49 AM
>         Subject: Re: service user involvement and survivor action
>         conference
>
>         Good point.
>
>         Lesley
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         *From:* The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>         [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Craig
>         Newnes
>         *Sent:* 21 July 2006 17:52
>         *To:* [log in to unmask]
>         *Subject:* Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] service user involvement and
>         survivor action conference
>
>         In a message dated 21/07/2006 12:04:33 GMT Standard Time,
>         [log in to unmask] writes:
>
>             FREE PLACES! There are 100 funded places for individuals
>             with direct personal experience of mental distress
>
>         Have you ever seen such rubbish. Is there a soul alive who
>         doesn't experience distress? As for "mental" distress. There's
>         no such thing (Ryle)
>
>         Craig
>
>         **********************************************************************
>
>
>         This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>
>         intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to
>         whom they
>
>         are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
>         notify
>
>         the system security manager ([log in to unmask]).
>
>         This footnote also confirms that this email message has been
>         swept by
>
>         MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses and
>         inappropriate content.
>
>         **********************************************************************
>
>
>         ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The
>         discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To
>         unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
>         http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any
>         problems or queries, contact the list moderator at
>         [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
>         ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The
>         discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To
>         unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
>         http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any
>         problems or queries, contact the list moderator at
>         [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
>
>         ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The
>         discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To
>         unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
>         http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any
>         problems or queries, contact the list moderator at
>         [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
>
>     -- 
>
>     The University of Stirling is a university established in Scotland
>     by charter at Stirling, FK9 4LA. Privileged/Confidential
>     Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the
>     addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery
>     of the message to such person), you may not disclose, copy or
>     deliver this message to anyone and any action taken or omitted to
>     be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. In
>     such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the
>     sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your
>     employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind.
>
>     ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The
>     discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe
>     or to change your details visit the website:
>     http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any
>     problems or queries, contact the list moderator at
>     [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
>     ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The
>     discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe
>     or to change your details visit the website:
>     http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any
>     problems or queries, contact the list moderator at
>     [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
>     ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The
>     discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe
>     or to change your details visit the website:
>     http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any
>     problems or queries, contact the list moderator at
>     [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
>
> -- 
>
> The University of Stirling is a university established in Scotland by 
> charter at Stirling, FK9 4LA. Privileged/Confidential Information may 
> be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated 
> in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such 
> person), you may not disclose, copy or deliver this message to anyone 
> and any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is 
> prohibited and may be unlawful. In such case, you should destroy this 
> message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise 
> immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email 
> for messages of this kind.
>
> ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion 
> list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe or to change 
> your details visit the website: 
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any problems 
> or queries, contact the list moderator at [log in to unmask] or 
> [log in to unmask] ___________________________________ 
> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the 
> UK. To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: 
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any problems 
> or queries, contact the list moderator at [log in to unmask] or 
> [log in to unmask] 


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.1/421 - Release Date: 16/08/06

___________________________________
COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK.
To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML
For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]