Thank you Simon for your thoughtful comments... it was not the viewpoint of
the individuals that I necessarily objected to but the rather crass way in
which they were expressed. Ironically enough I am not convinced myself that
ENPs are always a good thing... but there you go. I wholeheartedly agree
with you that the question we should be asking ourselves is 'should a nurse
be doing this?' and if there is a sound reason for it then fine let's go for
it
I certainly do not wish to stifle debate on this subject and again I agree
that the ability to stick two fingers up at the establishment without fear
of reprisals is to be defended at all costs and I appreciate that doctors as
well as nurses feel threatened by the current socio-political agenda.
As far as the 'politically correct' agenda is concerned again I have no
problems with people disagreeing with it (I do so myself regularly) but if
you are to take an un PC standpoint then you need to do so with intelligence
and a certain amount of humour and insight (being politically aware if you
like). Anyone can be crass and boorish in the way that they express their
opinions but I would expect more from this discussion group. I have listened
and learned from the discussion from this list for several years now and it
has helped me as an academic to stay in touch with what is actually
happening in the real world however I was saddened and rather depressed at
how quickly this thread descended into farce the first time a dissenting
voice was heard.
On a positive note however, I am relieved that the list has returned to what
it does best which is objective thoughtful debate.
RL
-----Original Message-----
From: Accident and Emergency Academic List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of McCormick Simon Dr,
Consultant, A&E
Sent: 17 August 2006 19:35
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: I think we have this all wrong - far from final thoughts
Robin,
Glad you haven't disappeared. I think the debate did degenerate a
little at one point, but without wishing to second guess some of my
colleagues, many of us are fed up at being unable to disagree with what
is deemed the current politically correct line. Some people feel nurses
with an extend role are a good thing, some are less convinced, and some
feel they are a bad idea. Any of those positions is perfectly
reasonable. Currently it is all the rage for change and for nurses to
expand their roles further, what the driving force for this is is open
to debate. Often the problem is not 'Can a nurse do this?' but 'Should
a nurse do this?' Those who oppose change are often seen as obstructive
dinosaurs but we need these people to keep the runaway innovators under
control. This is true of the changes occurring within medicine as a
whole and Emergency Medicine (just the doctoring bit specifically) too.
There is no doubt that there is also a socio-political agenda here too.
The power of the doctor, and more specifically the consultant/GP, is
being eroded and whilst on the one hand that may get rid of the so
called paternalistic dinosaur, it also gets rid of the one group of
clinical staff in a hospital who can fearlessly put two fingers up to
management and say NO with little fear of the sack. Undermining senior
doctors has its dangers and I'm afraid you may have stumbled across some
deep seated feelings not specific to ENPs in your posting.
Simon
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Lewis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 17 August 2006 18:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: I think we have this all wrong - far from final thoughts
If anyone had actually bothered to ask me directly (as Simon McCormick
did) then I would have told them my true intentions... but never let the
truth get in the way of a good moan eh...? as I said to Simon I wanted
to draw attention to some of the dinosaur-like opinions being voiced on
the list and the potential consequences of ill-considered comments on
the recipients
So thank you all for your concern (aaah) but my skin is thick enough
certainly to deal with the sort of postings that have been sent to date.
All I wanted was objective considered debate and I am pleased to see
that there is now at least some considered discussion now taking place
and if that has been an (indirect) effect of my intervention then so
much the better...
Can we please get back to the grown up debate now?
RL
-----Original Message-----
From: Accident and Emergency Academic List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Ellis
Sent: 17 August 2006 00:39
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: I think we have this all wrong - far from final thoughts
-----Original Message-----
From: Accident and Emergency Academic List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Doc Holiday
Sent: Thursday, 17 August 2006 3:43 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: I think we have this all wrong - far from final thoughts
From : Craig Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
>I think everyone would accept this is a public list with a public
archive.
--> I agree fully. And it is evident how a fresh reminder of this has
--> now
toned down quite a few of the more bitter expressions. I wonder how many
have rushed back through their archives to check on how they have
expressed themselves and to make sure they know what (could be) coming
in reply...
>However joke or not, it is very poor form to suggest widespread
>recirculation and goes against the spirit of discussion groups.
--> Well, I must say that it was VERY obvious to me that it was a joke,
especially as it clearly then indicated that it was. As such, I took it
to be intended as a jovial reminder to all that this forum IS open and,
as stated above, it seems to have worked... Agree that it would not have
been good form to suggest it or follow-up on the suggestion IF IT WERE
NOT a jest.
It wasn't to me. I don't have the original post, but I recall the last
line may have been an attempt to turn it into a joke - but I don't think
it was that clear from the overall tone of the post.
>I think you need to get a thicker skin.
--> I don't think we have evidence about skin thickness here. I am 100%
--> sure
that no-one here knows everyone who's lurking and, if you follow my
train of
thought, lurkers are more likely to be only lurking BECAUSE of skin
thinness!!!
No the OP had taken offence at the comments relating to ENP's and was
pissed off. The fact they were upset at the thought that some
consultants still hold traditional views about doctors and nurses roles
suggests a relatively thin skin IMO.
>Some Consultants have issues with ENPs. You dont have to agree (and I
>dont completely), but these are experienced Emergency Medicine doctors
>and they have reasons for there views.
--> I hope you mean "some consultants have issues with SOME ENPs" -
--> surely
it is only the poor medium of e-mail which made it SOUND as if they
could be
generalising to the whole group, the vast majority of whom they have
never laid eyes on or apprasied... e-mail does this...
No I didn't. Some of our colleagues object to the basic concept. This
isn't news is it?
I don't take that position. But I have several respected colleagues who
do and can present a very informed and rational debate as to why they
hold that view and think it was and still is a bad idea. And while I
don't agree with them - I don't belittle them for holding it.
>I am appalled you suggest they shouldnt be able to voice them here.
--> Do not be appalled. It is evident that this was not suggested. In
summary, it seems a reminder that:
1. This is a public forum
2. The fact that so many have rushed to condemn the MERE IDEA of e-mails
being copied to others suggest that they know how easy and possible that
would be.
3. If you stop and think you'll realise that the most likely people to
ACTUALLY forward these inflammatory items are the ones who HAVE NOT
suggested that they would, be it in jest or not, i.e. a lurker or some
such 4. My 6-year old probably knows how to forward the worst bits
WITHOUT it being evident who it was who forwarded them...
5. The rapid-fire reaction to this has probably made many sit up and
take notice and will now INCREASE the likelihood of it being forwarded
by anyone who, until now, was not sure of the potential for mischief
this would have -
they now KNOW we have people here worried about this...
My take was the OP was upset the opinions were voiced. Hence they are
suggesting they shouldn't have been. Robust discussion is why I
subscribe to mailing lists. I don't have any problem with the OP
debating the merits of a position - but the suggestion was that they
were not valid and shouldn't have been raised.
>The reality is that 15+ years of medical and emergency medicine
>education and subsequent years of consultant experience gives you the
>right to have opinions on those with considerably less education and
>experience working in a Specialty and the development of the Specialty
in general.
-> ... and the understanding, through experience, of what effect
politically-incorrect statements will have on the person making them and
the
ones they are made about, REGARDLESS of factuality or truth. I think
SpRs
get taught this rather well at some courses when dealing with media
relations, including the medium of e-mail.
Im having a flash back to the "Emperor's new clothes". I haven't seen
anything so outrageous here that people should be worried about the
PC-Police.
cheers
Craig
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