Annie says...
"For the list as a whole - I am troubled that the tone of some recent
exchanges may well be off-putting to other people wanting to read and
contribute on the list I wonder if the time is right to re-visit our
shared rules/ expectations for postings? What do others think?"
I agree. I think some of the exchanges are offputting and as a
result some people have left the list recently. I also think whilst
we're discussing power it doesn't mean that the tone of messages need
to be accusatory or unpleasant. We don't know each other's history
on this list and I agree with Mike that it is better to be mindful of
this when talking together.
I would be interested to see people's ideas about shared rules for
postings. I particularly would like to see some mention within said
rules/expectations around encouraging debate without situations
arising where any member might feel victimised or bullied.
---- Original Message ----
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Careers Re: 10000 more
psychologists needed....
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 23:57:53 +0100
>Hi Sue ( and others),
>
>For the list as a whole - I am troubled that the tone of some recent
>exchanges may well be off-putting to other people wanting to read
>and contribute on the list I wonder if the time is right to re-visit
>our shared rules/ expectations for postings? What do others think?
>
>Meantime I'm going to refrain from more contributions for a while and
>leave space for others. I'd be interested in peoples' views about my
>comments on Layard.. and how those interested in community psychology
>might help to redress the balance regarding the current political
>emphasis on therapeutic psychology. How can we make a stronger case
>for more teaching and learning about community psychology? How can we
>act together to provide it? or am I off the mark in being concerned?
>
>For Sue - I was musing on your message, not ignoring it. I did feel
>accused but no doubt you had your reasons. And I felt grateful to
>Mike for his comment which to me seemed wise and non-accusatory. As
>you don't know me personally, maybe I seem to represent those who in
>your experience just carry on as usual and ignore what is going on.
>Those with more access to power and influence do often seem to ignore
>what is going on for those with less power and I certainly regret the
>times I do that, and I want to try to do that less, just as I feel
>distressed when others do that to me, and I want them to do it less.
>
>
>Annie
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Sue
>McPherson
>Sent: Mon 03/07/2006 18:17
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
>Next time you wish to make a confession, sit on Annie's post, or
>anyone's but not mine.
>You're intelligent enough, surely, to see how that might have been
>seen by others. It certainly did come across as meaning that I had
>been accusing Annie, and accusing her unjustly, in your view. That is
>unacceptable to me.
>
>I had intended to send the above to you personally, Michael, in
>response to your private message, but I think it needs to be said to
>the list. I had raised what I thought were valid concerns, to Annie,
>and she has ignored that post, the one you chose to place your own
>comment on, about "making judgements." I made no personal attack on
>Annie. We were talking about power. And if you - and she - are
>using your power in ways that undermine what I am trying to say and
>do, then that is a misuse of your power, both of you.
>
>Sue McPherson
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Michael Swindlehurst" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 7:08 PM
>Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
>
>> I am guilty of making wrong judgements on people I know little or
>nothing
>> about. Those I attack today I may sorely need tomorrow.
>>
>> Mike S
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sue McPherson" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 4:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>>
>>
>> > When I say "work" I didn't mean that it had to be about
>relationships at
>> > work but just about work itself. People can seek some kind of
>talking
>> > therapy just to deal with issues of gaining confidence, even
>travelling to
>> > work in strange cities, or the effect that not having work has on
>one's
>> > life. So, nothing to do with relationships necessarily. But no,
>I don't
>> > think it is easy to dismiss things like "work" that are so
>important. I
>> > think it is a sign of where you - and many psychologists - are
>coming
>> > from - your standpoint. Once you have the career, it is
>relationships that
>> > become important. In fact, most people up there would say
>relationships
>> > are what are most important in life - just as you did - and that
>simply reflects
>> > the power you have to impose your own point of view.
>> >
>> > I didn't know psychology was a "talk therapy." I though it was
>more about
>> > using the rorsach test and other psychological tests to figure
>out where a
>> > person was at, then apply the dsm and label them. If this govt
>document
>> > suggested that people wanted more talk therapy why on earth
>wouldf they
>> > suggest ten thousand psychologists. That is so ridiculous! -
>even if some
>> > of them dod do talk therapy. There are so many other kinds of
>therapy.
>> > What is it with these people!
>> >
>> > Re injustice: some people are more vulnerable than others to
>injustice.
>> > eg,
>> > speaking of women, those without a husband; or without property,
>(or job,
>> > of course) or without family nearby; or, if they are older, and
>not sexually
>> > active. How do you fit in there? I have nothing. Just two
>degrees - a 4
>> > year BA and a 2 yr MA. They took me longer, but that's what they
>are. And
>> > I
>> > am treated in this country like a piece of shit.
>> >
>> > Oh, did we forget anger management - psychologists must be very
>good at
>> > trying to pass that one off on the victim, don't you think?
>> >
>> > And I think that saying sorry isn't enough. Not when so much
>damage has
>> > been
>> > done to my life here. Things aren't that much better in Canada,
>but here
>> > is
>> > worse - the class system is worse. I live in despair, but no
>fucking
>> > psychologist can help me.
>> >
>> > I recall someone in Canada who was doing research on a man who,
>one day,
>> > up
>> > and killed his wife and teenage children. He had lost his job and
>their
>> > beautiful home and middle class lifestyle would have been the
>next to go.
>> > So
>> > he decided to end it all for them so they would not have to
>suffer. In the
>> > study this researcher conducted, she explored the feelings of
>people in
>> > the
>> > community to see how they coped with tragedy. One said, We had no
>idea!
>> > another said: If only he had come to us! And so on. I know, from
>> > experience,
>> > how it works. People fall away from you. They don't invite you,
>they don't
>> > make you feel welcome. But they do keep sending literature - from
>clubs
>> > you
>> > used to go to, as if you were still welcome but declined to go.
>They do
>> > cruel things, say cruel things, and then, what do you suppose
>they say
>> > when
>> > you stop looking at people, when you stop trying to interact with
>them to
>> > protect yourself. I know how it is. And that man's decision to
>end his
>> > family's life may not have seemed fair, but the pain they would
>have had
>> > to
>> > endure, and the reduced quality of life, makes one wonder. People
>don't
>> > help
>> > when they see you being forced down the social ladder.
>> >
>> > You say, "injustices do happen" - obviously not in your life to
>the
>> > extent
>> > it has in mine. Don't pretend you know what I am going through
>and what I
>> > have already been through, at the university here and in this
>community,
>> > which works to serve the university. Just carry on as you always
>have, and
>> > ignore what's going on..
>> >
>> > And I shall continue to write on Marc Lepine and the Montreal
>Massacre -
>> > essay revised today.
>> >
>> > Sue McPherson
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Annie Mitchell" <[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 3:45 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Sue,
>> >
>> > Thanks for your response. No, I wasn't feeling victimised. And I
>agree
>> > that
>> > there is a risk of me just talking to other psychologists, so it
>is good
>> > to
>> > have you and Mike active on the list. I agree that psychologists
>in work
>> > do
>> > have power, and I worry both about the responsibilities that go
>with that
>> > power and also about the risk of abusing it..As Mike said on
>another
>> > posting, community psychologists tend to be very critical of
>ourselves -
>> > I
>> > feel that it is important to be critical and to remain open to
>criticism,
>> > but also to be forgiving, supportive and enouraging both to
>ourselves and
>> > to
>> > others who share socially inclusive values but with whom we may
>not
>> > always
>> > completely agree.
>> >
>> > In my last posting I was just musing aloud really about my
>worries, and
>> > wanting to keep the debate going. . I am concerned about how we
>all - (I
>> > as
>> > an individual, us list members as people interested in
>psychology and
>> > all
>> > of us as members of society, and the government) are going to
>respond to
>> > Lord Layard's proposals and was stimulated to write by David's
>comments
>> > about the need for different sorts of training in psychology. .
>Of course
>> > you are right - work is hugely important. Life and humans are so
>
>> > complex -
>> > as soon as we focus on one aspect ( eg relationships - and I
>meant all
>> > our
>> > relationships, including but not only personal relationships) it
>is easy
>> > in
>> > doing so to turn attention away from other things that are also
>important
>> > ( eg work).
>> >
>> > In the bit where I mentioned talking therapies for people who are
>> > psychologically distressed - there I was referring to Layard,
>who, in his
>> > government report, uses evidence that people want greater access
>to
>> > psychological therapies or talking therapies as part of his
>justification
>> > for arguing that there should be more public money spent on
>training more
>> > psychologists.
>> >
>> > Regarding employment - I think that there have been good
>legislation
>> > improvements recently regarding equal opportunities and, where
>these are
>> > properly applied, it should be ability, skills and knowledge that
>count;
>> > it's bad in all sorts of ways to experience injustice in
>employment. And
>> > of
>> > course we all know that policies don't always get properly
>applied and
>> > that
>> > injustices do happen. And we are all vulnerable to such
>injustices - I am
>> > sorry that you have had bad experiences in this regard.
>> >
>> > For those who are interested in "New Ways of Working as Applied
>> > Psychologists" there is what is called a stakeholder conference,
>run by
>> > the
>> > British Psychological Society (BPS) coming up very soon (14th
>july) in
>> > Wolverhampton - further information can be found on
>> >
>http://www.bps.org.uk/the-society/boardscommittees/professional-pract
>ice-boa
>> > rd/new_ways_of_working_for_applied_psychologists.cfm-
>> >
>> > Good wishes,
>> >
>> >
>> > Annie
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of
>Sue
>> > McPherson
>> > Sent: Sun 02/07/2006 13:08
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>> >
>> > Annie Mitchell
>> >
>> > I hope you are not feeling victimized because I was critical of
>the
>> > motives
>> > of psychology and other therapies in society. It should not be
>forgotten
>> > that you are the ones with the power - to encourage others to be
>> > inclusive,
>> > or to dissuade them by your own behaviour. One way you can make a
>
>> > difference
>> > is to respond directly to those who approach you with their
>concerns. I
>> > would appreciate it if you did that, to my post. If you want to
>challenge
>> > social forces at work, that's probably one of the best ways of
>doing it.
>> > Otherwise, it is simply you (psychologists) talking amongst
>yourselves
>> > about
>> > "them."
>> >
>> > I think that psychology should be, or could be, a "talking
>therapy." I'm
>> > not
>> > sure what you're getting at when you mention that subject - that
>I am one
>> > of
>> > the psychologically distressed? It is a topic I approached in my
>post, if
>> > I
>> > recall correctly. It's actually work that can underly our
>well-being, in
>> > my
>> > view, and not simply personal relationships, as you suggest.
>That's
>> > probably
>> > an old-fashioned view that personal relationships count more. But
>for
>> > people
>> > who are single, it's work that counts. Believe me! Again, this
>seems to
>> > be
>> >an indication of social problems being approached from one
>perspective
>> >only.
>> > To working people with spouses, what's important appears to be
>the
>> > relationship. But it might not be to people with neither the job
>nor the
>> > relationship.
>> >
>> > And communities don't tend to be inclusive of people with neither
>of these
>> > (job nor relationship). So how are you going to challenge that
>kind of
>> > thinking unless you start doing it yourself - being inclusive on
>a
>> > discussion list and not simply responding to other psychologists?
>> >
>> > You are the ones with power, as I said. You set an example by
>your
>> > actions.
>> > You can simply sit up there and do nothing, and people will
>follow your
>> > example. Of course personal relationships are important. I agree
>with
>> > that.
>> > But having a job is what gives you the identity to be able to
>relate to
>> > people on a level other than "underclass," (unless one is
>independently
>> > wealthy, or can demonstrate ownership of property, or membership
>of the
>> > "right" family).
>> >
>> > To some people, it is the job that matters. And I know this
>because it is
>> > the job - the lack of one - that holds me back. I applied to the
>position
>> > mentioned on this list recently, for Nigel Wellman, but even with
>all the
>> > research I've done, what chance do I have? You're right, it is
>> > relationships
>> > that count. One needs the relationships to get the job. Or is it
>youth
>> > that
>> > counts. And sexual attractiveness, and all the possibilities that
>holds
>> > with
>> > it. Add that one in as another factor I am lacking, by today's
>standards.
>> > Yes, the relationship is important. It's too bad that it is what
>counts in
>> > todays' world, and not ability, knowledge, and experience. The
>> > relationship gets you the job, and the job enables one to form
>new
>> > relationships, and so on, up the ladder to success.
>> >
>> > Sue McPherson
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Annie Mitchell" <[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 11:15 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>> >
>> >
>> > Lord Layard, whose government report advocates training more
>clinical
>> > psychologists so as to support the provision of more
>psychological
>> > therapies, provides an analysis in his book Happiness (2005), of
>why in
>> > most
>> > Western countries, including the UK, depression rates seem to be
>rising
>> > and
>> > happiness rates not rising despite overall increases in material
>> > well-being.
>> > As an economist he has to express surprise - political economy
>> > expectations
>> > had been that increases in GDP would bring increases in citizen
>well-being
>> > overall, yet that simply hasn't happened, at least not in the
>arena of
>> > psychological well-being. He looks at the psychological
>literature and
>> > concludes that social comparisions are an underlying mechanism:
>He says
>> > "We
>> > have a good idea why happiness has risen less than was expected:
>our norms
>> > have risen, as other people's incomes have risen and likewise our
>own
>> > experience of comfort. The central mechanism at work here is our
>habit of
>> > comparision." Now, one possible route for an economist interested
>in
>> > psychology to follow on unearthing this insight would be to start
>thinking
>> > about how psychology could help in challenging the social forces
>at work
>> > that promote unhelpful expectations and aspirations and that fuel
>> > inequalitites, social divisions and war ( eg the role of
>advertising, the
>> > role of the media, the role of big business and shareholder
>economics in
>> > structuring western society towards ever increasing expecations
>of share
>> > holder rewards, the role of social denial in the face of huge
>evidence
>> > that
>> > unsustainable levels of consumption are fuelling environmental
>degradation
>> > and climate change). Indeed, there is plenty in his analysis to
>take us
>> > along the route in exploring these issues. However, his advisors
>from
>> > mainstream psychology are not too good at providing help with all
>of this.
>> > Psychology as it has been advanced in the west is largely (
>though not
>> > entirely) the cognitive psychology of the individual, with a
>significant
>> > interest in clinical psychology in how to change people's
>thinking -- and
>> > given political avoidance of tackling the vested interests at
>work in
>> > advancing the social inequalities underpinning human distress, it
>is
>> > unsurprising that it is psychological therapy (changing
>individuals'
>> > "faulty" or "unhelpful" ways of thinking) that is currently
>attractive
>> > politically. If we concentrate on getting the population happy
>with things
>> > as they are, there is less political threat to those who stand to
>benefit
>> > from things being as they are.
>> >
>> > Yet at the same time, there is plenty of policy analysis in the
>Uk
>> > currently
>> > that acknowledges the need for more socially just services and
>provision -
>> > the NHS and public services are inceasingly asked to contribute
>to efforts
>> > challenging social inequalites at a service provision level -
>there are
>> > numerous examples of policy initiatives such as the Ten Essential
>Shared
>> > Capabailites of the Whole of the Mental Health Workforce which
>require us
>> > to
>> > work in ways advocated by community psychology - promoting
>partnership.
>> > prevention and empowerment ... there is lots of scope for
>challenging or
>> > providing a counter-balance to the current pre-occupation with
>individual
>> > therapy. However, since community psychology is so marginal to
>> > professional
>> > structures and therefore has no sort of political voice, we
>don't have
>> > much
>> > if any influence - currently the loudest voices in the applied
>clinical
>> > field are those of cognitive behaviour therapists. I fully agree
>with
>> > David
>> > that we need more community psychology at all levels of
>psychology
>> > learning.
>> >
>> > Of course it is the case that people who are psychologically
>distressed
>> > are
>> > asking for more talking therapies. We all know that human
>relationships
>> > underpin our well-being ( indeed Layard's own analysis summarises
>some of
>> > the evidence that this is so). But the evidence is that when
>psychological
>> > therapies are helpful they work through the provision of
>effective
>> > therapeutic relationships. But the social danger in focussing too
>much on
>> > the provision of "expert" relationships is that we thereby
>contribute to
>> > the
>> > diminishing of naturally occuring helpful relationships within
>> > communities - we perpetuate the idea that people cannot help one
>another
>> > but
>> > instead must rely on "expert" help. Yet as David points out, we
>know that
>> > non-experts can be just as helpful as trained professionals. (But
>trained
>> > professionals are not keen on exploring that further - we want to
>belive
>> > that our own therapies are special and complex thereby justifying
>our own
>> > existence). Yet there is evidence, for example in the field of
>> > psychological
>> > debriefing after disasters, that expert interventions, applied
>> > uncriitically, can make things better rather than worse,
>apparently by
>> > interfering with naturally occuring social healing processes.
>> >
>> > I worry as a trainer in clinical psychology that the debate is
>polarised -
>> > how can we contribute to advancing our social and psychological
>> > understanding of the deeper forces underpinning human distress,
>while at
>> > the
>> > same time adressing the deep human need for sympathetic humane
>response
>> > to
>> > psychological distress in human individuals. Where is the space
>for public
>> > health psychology? At the same time, how do we stop ourselves
>simply
>> > serving
>> > our own vested interests - especially given the need to justify
>the
>> > relatively large salaries that clinical psychologists earn? And
>how we we
>> > bring together a genuinely social applied psychology given the
>pressures
>> > and
>> > divides within our own discipline - and the various envies and
>> > disgruntlements between the different branches of psychology? And
>how do
>> > we
>> > genuinely work together with our non-professional psychology
>colleagues/
>> > comrades to contribute to social change? I am aware that many
>clinical
>> > psychologists ( including many that I have been involved in
>training) want
>> > to apply their critical knowledge of community psycholgy in
>practice yet
>> > experience difficulties in doing so because current NHS
>employment
>> > pressures
>> > along with uncritical management acceptance of the evidence base
>of what
>> > works in practice limits the scope of their activities. It is
>hard (
>> > though
>> > not impossible) to promote social change from within - it seems
>to me that
>> > we need to work together both within and without professional
>structures
>> > if
>> > we are to tip the balance away from simplistic solutions towards
>more
>> > complex analyses of what will improve our collective well-being.
>> >
>> > Annie
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of
>David Fryer
>> > Sent: Sat 01/07/2006 10:54
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>> >
>> > Apologies if my previous posting was misleading for some.
>> >
>> > I am indeed based at Stirling University myself but I certainly
>did not
>> > provide a link to the Stirling site to stimulate interest in
>careers via
>> > that route. I drew attention to that masters course in the
>Department of
>> > psychology at Stirling, as part of the debate re 10,000 extra
>> > psychologists,
>> > because it is an example of the newer courses I expect to see
>> > proliferating - they are far shorter than clinical courses and so
>the
>> > graduates are far cheaper to produce. Such shorter courses will
>inevitably
>> > cover less material in less depth than three year clinical
>doctorates
>> > because so much shorter and will provide a new workforce of
>psychologists
>> > for the NHS which is cheaper than employing clinical
>psychologists.
>> >
>> > Of course one can take different positions on such courses. From
>a
>> > critical
>> > perspective they share many of the problems of mainstream
>clinical
>> > psychology: both are primarily are about 'treating' individuals
>within a
>> > medical model frame of reference through intra-psychic change
>rather than
>> > preventing or addressing collective causes of distress within a
>social
>> > justice frame of reference through societal change. Both collude
>with
>> > victim
>> > blaming. Some might argue that three years of clinical training
>provides
>> > more scope for engaging with more approaches to intervention
>(some
>> > clinical
>> > courses include modules on community psychology) and more scope
>for
>> > critical
>> > reflection on the 'scientific practitioner' mantra. However,
>others might
>> > argue that because it is shorter the training for a one year
>masters has
>> > less chance for trainees to be socialised into problematic
>clinical ways
>> > and
>> > less opportunities for the effectiveness of trainees to be
>diminished than
>> > clinical training (thinking of Durlak's classic work suggesting
>that non
>> > professionals are often more effective than professionals in
>addressing
>> > psychological difficulties).
>> >
>> > What I would really like to see is more opportunities to learn
>about
>> > critical community* psychology in the UK as there are in many
>other
>> > countries. Regrettably I cannot currently recommend Stirling in
>that
>> > regard
>> > to members of this list. An established undergraduate module in
>critical
>> > community psychology has recently been discontinued by the
>University and
>> > whilst there is some really good postgraduate critical community
>> > psychology
>> > going on here now that particular work will be drawing to a close
>within a
>> > few months. Whilst future postgraduate supervision in critical
>community
>> > psychology is available in theory, in practice funding is very
>difficult
>> > indeed to get. Further community psychological praxis at Stirling
>
>> > involving
>> > more personnel depends, as elsewhere, upon the availability of
>external
>> > funding but such funding seldom allows genuinely critical praxis
>for
>> > obvious
>> > reasons - why would the powerful fund work fundamentally devoted
>to
>> > depowering it?
>> >
>> > David
>> >
>> > * interesting social psychology at Stirling is developing
>following the
>> > relatively recent appointment of Alex Gillespie
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> >
>> > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of
>Sue
>> > McPherson
>> > Sent: Fri 30/06/2006 13:52
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists
>> > needed....
>> >
>> >
>> > . . . . .
>> >
>> > Nevertheless, you will have many interested people (in careers,
>probably)
>> > looking at the Stirling site. It would be better, I am sure, if
>society is
>> > going to get stuck with more top-down cures that there is more
>variety.
>> > .
>> > . .. Are you at Stirling, by the way
>> >
>> > Sue McPherson
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >
>> > From: Michael Swindlehurst <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:23 PM
>> > Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>> >
>> >
>> > No spelling mistake (on this occassion) with my use of the word
>'canon'.
>> > This was a reference to the power of religion. The 'barons' refer
>to those
>> > who mostly control our social and economic structures as well put
>by Cathy
>> > and David below. The intended construction and advance of the 10k
>may help
>> > a
>> > little toward enlightening the big guns but I fear it is more
>likely to
>> > shield and prolong their reign at even greater loss to us all,
>including
>> > themselves. Our species and planet cannot cope with these 'valley
>of
>> > death'
>> > conflicts and inequalities indefinately. I just hope we can come
>up with a
>> > universal light giving brigade before it is too late for all of
>us. My
>> > hopes
>> > for this are currently largely with list members and your allies
>- most
>> > people on this planet I should imagine.
>> >
>> > Mike S
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: David Fryer <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 3:21 PM
>> > Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>> >
>> > Who would train the 10,000 psychologists? Yet more psychologists
>(to be
>> > employed and trained to train) of course.
>> >
>> > Would they come from the same school . . . . I would bet on
>training
>> > primarily to deliver cognitive behaviour therapy to people
>diagnosed as
>> > 'anxious' or 'depressed' . Much easier (and politically
>acceptable) to
>> > offer
>> > people psychological snake oil than to change our society to
>remove social
>> > causes of psychological distress and physical illness like
>unemployment,
>> > stressful employment, domestic violence, racism, heterosexism,
>disabling
>> > practices . . . . .
>> >
>> > If you want to get a glimpse of the likely future have a look at
>the MSc
>> > Psychological Therapy in Primary Care at Stirling University: "A
>variety
>> > of
>> > studies by central government and professional bodies have
>identified the
>> > growing demand for psychological interventions for adults
>presenting with
>> > common mental health disorders (e.g. anxiety and depression) in
>NHS
>> > Primary
>> > care. There is also widespread recognition of the difficulties in
>meeting
>> > that demand. This Masters program, delivered jointly by the
>Universities
>> > of
>> > Stirling and Dundee has been designed by National Health Service
>(NHS)
>> > professionals and experienced academics to train people to
>deliver
>> > psychological therapies for common mental health disorders in
>adults in
>> > Primary Care."
>> > <http://www.psychology.stir.ac.uk/postgrad/propspectus2.php>
>> > http://www.psychology.stir.ac.uk/postgrad/propspectus2.php
>> >
>> > To get back to Tennyson . . . I too struggled with the light
>brigade
>> > comparison, find the poem's images repugnant on a variety of
>levels and
>> > certainly do not see the 10K psychologists as the innocent
>victims. Cathy
>> > McCormack has spoken powerfully of the 'war without bullets'
>being waged
>> > against people lower down the social hierarchy by people higher
>up it . .
>> > .
>> > .a war being fought with brief cases, policies leading to
>widening
>> > inequalities, stigma, disabling practices and psy-techniques
>which lead
>> > people to internalise understandings of themselves and their
>settings
>> > which
>> > are damaging to them and serve the interests of the status quo.
>So if we
>> > are
>> > to think in terms of the charge of the light brigade at all, I
>suggest
>> > imagining those advancing into the valley of death as being those
>millions
>> > of our fellow citizens who epidemiologists have repeatedly shown
>have
>> > shorter, less healthy, more brutalised lives due to a variety of
>forms of
>> > societal inequality and imagine the the 10,000 psychologists as
>camped on
>> > the sides of the valley operating the CBT cannon to the left of
>them, the
>> > person centred cannon to the right of them, the stress management
>cannon
>> > in
>> > front of them and the positive psychology cannon behind them
>> >
>> > As for Marx . . .. I don't know about others but if my work was
>described
>> > as Marxist I would take it as a compliment . . .
>> >
>> > David
>> >
>> > David Fryer
>> > Community Psychology Group
>> > University of Stirling
>> > FK9 4LA
>> > Scotland
>> > +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
>> > +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
>> > [log in to unmask]
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue
>McPherson
>> > Sent: 29 June 2006 1:53 pm
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists
>needed....
>> >
>> >
>> > I don't know who you are or what you do. Sounds Marxist to me.
>I can't
>> > come up with a different metaphor at this moment but how about
>just not
>> > seeing the world in terms of them and "us" with psychologists the
>innocent
>> > victims in all this.
>> >
>> > Does not anyone know the theory behind this - that as people are
>rewarded
>> > they will align themselves with the oppressors? Psychologists can
>do harm
>> > as
>> > well as good, as any of us can. But they do have a lot of power.
>> >
>> > I would want to ask, who is going to train all these
>psychologists? Are
>> > they
>> > all going to come from the same school - the same way of
>thinking.
>> > Wouldn't
>> > it be better to have a variety of mental health professionals -
>if there
>> > has
>> > to be - to deal with different kinds of people - psychoanalysts,
>> > psychotherapists, psychiatrists, trained women's counsellors, and
>so on.
>> > It's frightening to think of so many psychologists wandering the
>social
>> > community seeking out new "victims" to indoctrinate into their
>way of
>> > thinking - particularly if they've all studied and come from the
>> > perspective
>> > of behaviourism.
>> >
>> > Sue McPherson
>> > Sociology (social-psychology and women's studies), envisioning
>wannabee
>> > psychologists rubbing their hands with glee.
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Serdar M. Degirmencioglu
><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 5:29 AM
>> > Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>> >
>> > Well put...
>> >
>> > Serdar M. Degirmencioglu
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> > From: Michael Swindlehurst <[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 1:21:15 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists
>needed....
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Into the valley of death rode the ten thousand - canons to the
>left of
>> > them,
>> > barons to the right of them. Yet more measures to protect the big
>guns who
>> > are destroying all of us.
>> >
>> > Mike S
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: David Fryer <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 9:59 PM
>> > Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>> >
>> > Why 10,000 psychologists needed?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > In his paper, The Role of the Psychologist, Ignacio Martin-Baro
>cited
>> > French
>> > psychologist, Richelle, as asking Why psychologists?, why the
>quiet
>> > proliferation of a new species and Deleule as offering an
>insightful reply
>> > psychology offers an alternative solution to social conflicts: it
>tries to
>> > change the individual while preserving the social order, or, in
>the best
>> > of
>> > cases, generating the illusion that, perhaps as the individual
>changes, so
>> > will the social order. Martin Baro commented when looking
>dispassionately
>> > at
>> > the place some psychological concepts occupy in the dominant
>political and
>> > cultural discourse, or when pondering the role played by the
>majority of
>> > psychologists in our countries, one has to concede that Deleule
>makes a
>> > lot
>> > of sense (Aron and Corne, 1994:37).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Aron, A. and Corne, S. (Editors) (1994). Writings for a
>Liberation
>> > Psychology: Ignacio Martin-Baro. Harvard University Press:
>Cambridge ,
>> > Mass.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > David
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > David Fryer
>> > Community Psychology Group
>> > University of Stirling
>> > FK9 4LA
>> > Scotland
>> > +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
>> > +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
>> > [log in to unmask]
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue
>McPherson
>> > Sent: 23 June 2006 1:38 pm
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists
>needed....
>> >
>> >
>> > Or, people could respond on this list, if they don't mind not
>making
>> > "rapid
>> > response." What do you think, Petra? You must have an opinion on
>this,
>> > surely.
>> >
>> > Sue McPherson
>> >
>> >
>> > ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The
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>> > ________________________________
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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